Tarptent vs MSR

Complex issue? It's simple! Like I said, pay someone minimum wage (Who could probably use the job right now) to seam seal the shelters a couple days a week and pass that cost on to me, that's cool. It's really not complex

The issue with seam-sealing is not how long it takes to apply the sealant, or how much it costs to pay someone to do it, or how complex it is… it's how long it takes for the sealant to dry. To dry properly it takes a couple of days, during which time the tent needs to be set up to air properly. Now imagine 40 tents being seam-sealed at any one time… you need quite a big space in which to do it, which costs money.

So it's not a question of simply hiring someone extra a couple of days a week… it involves hiring an extra large drying area on a permanent basis. This area would usually need to be bigger than the actual manufacturing room(s), so it adds significantly to the overheads.

So think twice before suggesting that they just don't do it because they think they can get away with it. The cottage manufacturers are aware that seam-sealing is a pain, and I'm sure they would like to offer it for a small additional cost. But in many cases it is not practicable.

I think SMD offers optional seam-sealing on their tents, though they probably don't sell as many as tarptent.

We shall see. If she starts whinning I will sleep by the door so I am the one that get disturbed if anyone has to wake up. However, if it become a matter of "I really got to go pee and don't want to have to deal with climbing over you (me)?" Then Ill let her be by the door. And if God forbid she wants both worlds to be able to pee quick and not be disturbed, Ill have to sit her down in a very calm matter and be like, "Honey, have you ever head of this saying you can't have your cake and eat it?…however, before you answer that, their is one stipulation there will be not mention of dual door tents. Ok you may proceed." End of conversation. Ha Ha Ha.

"But Timmy, how come Ashley's tent has two doors and ours only has one?"

=-)

Actually, you can get any tent from the main cottage manufacturers that we've been talking about seam sealed to your door for extra cost as it is. I just think it should be included in the cost. If it's hard to do, sorry but that's part of making a waterproof shelter. "It's too hard" is not a good enough excuse to me when multiple Benjamin's are on the line. What other gear, that's not a kit, is like this??

"Now imagine 40 tents being seam-sealed at any one time… you need quite a big space in which to do it, which costs money."

Create a shelving unit that stacks the tents up vertically on trays and being that this cottage companies are so small, its not like they would need to have a whole warehouse of vertically stacked shelves drying tents in mass quanities.

"The cottage manufacturers are aware that seam-sealing is a pain…"

Exactly our point. Dump it on the consumer to have to deal with this "pain" as you put. Pfft…charge me an extra $10 or $20 to seam seal my tent. I dont care. I mean crap your're already sucking $300-400 out of me as it is. Does any else agree or are you guys finicky when it comes to laying out another Jefferson or Jackson for the convenience.

"But Timmy, how come Ashley's tent has two doors and ours only has one?"

Well then ill just have to sabotage your tent at night somehow and be like, "Look sweetheart, see those tents are not all that great. Sure they were able to pee easily at night, but look how wet Ashley's boyfriend is, that rain sure did get in there. Poor kids, what a shame."

:p

Complex issue? It's simple! Like I said, pay someone minimum wage (Who could probably use the job right now) to seam seal the shelters a couple days a week and pass that cost on to me, that's cool. It's really not complex.

In retrospect, I should have better defined what I meant by "complex" (or, perhaps, used a different word). Sure, the act of applying seam sealant is relatively simple, and it wouldn't be all that hard to train someone to do it well. What's more complicated is the process, as Franco touched on briefly and Ashley explained in much more detail.

It looks like Franco has been kind enough to start a new thread. This one has definitely taken a left turn, so perhaps someone can now put it back on course…

Exactly our point. Dump it on the consumer to have to deal with this "pain" as you put. Pfft…charge me an extra $10 or $20 to seam seal my tent.

As Aaron says, you can usually get them to seam-seal your tent. I think it costs $15 extra or so.

Should it be included up-front? Maybe. It's tough to include it in your price when all the other cottage manufacturers do not though. Makes your tents seem more expensive than the competition. The big manufacturers are a different story… we usually expect them to be cheaper because of economies of scale.

Ok so I really like that I dont have to seal the MSR. (I dont know how to do that actually so thats a big plus there already)

I have a marmot 850 fill sleeping bag that I must keep dry so the extra protection is also really really nice for me.

But I am 6'1" and 200 lbs so while im glad the MSR is a bit longer, I am worried about the width issue because I will need to fit one of my friends in it with me making the scarp2 a more comfortable option.

I also like that the scarp is free standing. I wonder if I can use my trekking poles to make the MSR freestanding …

The one door isnt a problem for me at all. Ive never had to get up in the middle of the night and im a late sleeper so that shouldnt be a problem. But I do have to wonder why they didnt just put a zipper by the foot end of the tent. I wouldnt mind squeezing past a CF post.

I also noticed that MSR recommends a base tarp to protect the bottom that adds another 14oz! Does anyone know if I can do without that? If I need to use one of those, it becomes equal in weight to the scarp2. Would I need one for the Scarp2 as well?

The price on the MSR is insane however. Im leaning towards it but I cant afford to pay $500 for it. Is there a place I can check to buy one cheap? Ebay didnt have any deals that I could see.

but look how wet Ashley's boyfriend is, that rain sure did get in there

lol. I'm a guy not a gal! =-)

John, you don't need a base tarp/ groundcloth with the MSR. You don't need one with the Scarp 2 either, although you need to take a bit of care with site selection. If you want to take a groundcloth anyway (some people do) there are much lighter options available. Forget the MSR footprint.

Look earlier in this thread for a suggestion on a deal for the MSR tent.

Polycro rocks.

The price on the MSR is insane however. Im leaning towards it but I cant afford to pay $500 for it. Is there a place I can check to buy one cheap? Ebay didnt have any deals that I could see.

The $307 deal that Timothy got at Backcountry Edge has passed, but you can pick one up at BaseGear.com for about $400 shipped (they offer a 20% discount if you sign up for membership). As others have said, skip the MSR ground cloth and save the money and weight. If you feel the need to have one, the polycro suggestion is a good one. In case you're not familiar with them, they're available from Gossamer Gear.

John: "I also like that the scarp is free standing. I wonder if I can use my trekking poles to make the MSR freestanding …"

The CR2 is only 'not free standing' in the sense that it requires the 4 corners staked down. Since you would stake the 4 corners of any tent anyways, it's a non-issue. You do not have to start roping the tent to things to keep it up like a tarp.

Timothy: "Second, as far as keeping gear in the tent. I am going to have to disagree with Dan on this one. Well maybe/maybe not. If Dan means storing your backpack in the tent or any large items, I definitely disagree. However, I could see how a couple of small items could fit at the heels of your feet. In other words, something along the lines of a flashlight or something."

I store larger items (pack, footwear) under the vestibules and smaller items (headlamp, phone etc) inside the tent in the mesh pockets. The CR2 has really nice mesh pockets. They are very easy to find in the pitch dark.

Chris: "“If you took a door off the Scarp, gave it a carbon main pole, removed the top vents, etc. it would undoubtedly be lighter than the Carbon Reflex 2.”"

That's a lot of 'ifs'. If you made the Carbon Reflex out of SilNylon like the Scarp 2 and it would be even lighter still :)

Ashley: "It beats me why MSR didn't add another L shaped zipper to the other side. Seriously — it would only add one or two ounces extra at most (there is already a vertical zipper in place) and add enormously to the usability of the tent."

I agree, this is silly. It would add like 0.25oz and make the rear vestibule significantly more usable. I rarely use the rear vestibule because of the poor access but the front vestible is large enough that I can get 2 packs and 2 pair of footwear in there. Sometimes I toss one pack in the rear vestibule by slipping it under the fly.

Ashley: "The idea of having a single door on the side seems ridiculous to me. My GF would shoot me if I bought a tent for us to share like that! One person has to climb over the other one to get out, which is annoying for both people. So even if I'm willing to put up with someone climbing over me during the night, my GF certainly isn't willing to be trapped on the opposite side!"

Having a single side door is somewhat of a compromise in livability, but I see it as a fairly minor one. Prior to falling asleep, it is easy for the person closest to the door to sit up so the other person can walk behind and out the door. In the middle of the night, you would have to step over the other sleeping person if you happen to be the person away from the door (or you could wake them up) but how often does this happen? Unless both of you are frequent nightime washroom users, it's not a big deal. If one person commonly wakes up in the night to use the washroom (or lack there of) just put them by the door. My wife and I have spent several nights in the CR2 and never have we had a situation where someone was stepping over the other.

Consider how much weight having a single door saves (2-3oz???) and then think what cost there is to that (having to step over a person once in a while). I think it's a debate-able trade off.

Timothy: "I think it would cause it to collapse though if you decided to open both doors at one time though. Just a thought, could be completely wrong."

I don't think so. The CR2 would only collapse if you broke or unclipped the main pole OR if you pulled out the stakes at multiple locations. With the fly on, you'd need to remove at least 3 stakes to cause it to collapse. The doors are not a stressed area.

I haven't owned a Carbon Reflex 2 but I have owned the Hubba Hubba which is what the Carbon Reflex is based on. Asside from the carbon poles and removal of the door they're essentially the same. I replaced the Hubba Hubba with the Scarp 2 so I feel that I can make a fair comparison on the general basics of the two designs.

On paper the Scarp offered us slightly more space for less weight than the Hubba Hubba. In reality, it's quite a bit more floor space because it's a lot more usable in the Scarp. Since the pole design of the Carbon Reflex is mostly the same as the Hubba Hubba this should hold true when comparing that tent as well.

Over a year plus of use we never had condensation drip on us inside the inner tent of the Hubba Hubba but we almost always had condensation on the inside of the fly when it was in use. We've had the Scarp out 3-4 times now and have yet to have condensation appear anywhere on it. This is in the highly humid SE for reference.

I don't expect to setup a tent in the rain but should you ever need to the design of the Scarp allows the inner tent to stay dry. This is not really true for the Hubba Hubba or the Carbon Reflex 2 because you have to setup the inner before the fly.

We keep all of our gear except our shoes, hung food bags, and water inside the tent with us. When we go to bed this doesn't amount to much because we're typically wearing all our clothes except extra socks and sun hats. Packs are emptied and used as part of our sleep pad system. This worked in the Hubba Hubba and continues to work fine in the Scarp. Assuming the floor space on the Carbon Reflex is the same as it appears on paper I would expect it to work there as well.

The weight difference between the Scarp and Carbon Reflex when split across two people is moot. Having the extra door is well worth it.

Summary-

Scarp offers better usable floor space and better ventilation. Scarp design is more usable for 2 than Carbon Reflex design (extra door). Weight difference is moot when split between 2 people. Square footage is moot, either will work for 2.

Other differences if you need them are the Scarp offers a lot more versatility with it's optional poles for snow loads and increased wind resistance as well as it's swappable inner tents for different climates and temps. Those do add weight but the option is at least there if you need it.

Single-Wall still walks all over both these tents in weight to square footage ratio…Guess that's another thread…Couldn't help myself. Squall 2 / Rainshadow 2 anyone? Ok, back to double-wall, sorry!

Chris: "I don't expect to setup a tent in the rain but should you ever need to the design of the Scarp allows the inner tent to stay dry. This is not really true for the Hubba Hubba or the Carbon Reflex 2 because you have to setup the inner before the fly."

Fair point, although footprint users can set up the CR2 fly before the body.

Chris: "Scarp offers better usable floor space and better ventilation. Scarp design is more usable for 2 than Carbon Reflex design (extra door). Weight difference is moot when split between 2 people. Square footage is moot, either will work for 2."

I agree with you that the extra floor space is nice. I don't think it's essential but I do understand that it's more comfortable. The ventilation seems moot because neither tent has dripped on you (and BPL did observe heavy condensation in the Scarp 2 fly). I'm not sure 6oz of weight savings (or 3oz per person) is entirely moot….with 6oz of weight savings I could pack along a lot of chocolate which would taste darn good at the end of a long day :)

A major selling feature of the CR2 (for me) is the waterproofing. I'm not referring to the seam sealing, but rather the fly and floor of the tent. Waking up to find water has leaked through the floor could be a real trip wrecker since we're all using down bags etc. I realize SilNylon is pretty much standard in the UL world but I prefer the piece of mind that a 10,000mm waterproof floor offers. I would like two doors, but given the choice between two doors or a 10,000mm floor I think I would take the 10,000mm waterproofing.

With all that said, the Scarp 2 looks like a sick tent. I like the versatility of it.

When you're at a 6-7 lb base weight, 3 ounces doesn't matter much anymore. That's what I was trying to say anyway.

As to the waterproofing, that would only come in to play if you camped in a flood plain or in a hole when it's raining. If you use careful site selection you should never need anything more waterproof than sil.

I bought an extra one to post on Ebay for $399.99 so I could have some money to buy a membership on here. Rather than selling it on Ebay, if youd like Id be willing to sell it to you for $374.99 and include free shipping with delivery confirmation. After I pay for shipping and lose out on Paypal fees, I should be able to make a $25 profit out of it…just enough for the membership. Its up to you, I get a membership and you get a tent for 25% off the retail price =)

Anyone else see the details on the new Vaude Scutum Ultralight tent just announced at the outdoor retailer show? This tent sounds too good to be true.

It's a double wall 2 person tent that has a 10,000mm waterproof floor and it weighs a shocking 1050g (37oz)! I don't know how they did that without SilNylon or Carbon Fibre. From the pictures (at http://lighthiker.wordpress.com/) it appears roomy inside. I think it's just a single side door like the CR2.

It actually sounds a lot like the CR2 except it uses aluminum poles yet weighs a lot less….hmm….I wonder if someone can verify the weight.

The Vaude Scrotum Ultralight sounds like a great shelter for gear nuts…

Lol

I stayed out of the seam sealing debate on WB, but now it's popped up here so I gotta jump in and have a little fun.

What's the big deal with seam sealing? I seam sealed a Double Rainbow in maybe an hour (or slightly less…or maybe it took longer…can't remember), and it cost me <$10 (the cost of a tube of silicone sealant and some low odor mineral spirits from Lowes). It's not a big deal to do it. You set up the tent, you seal it, and then you leave it sit there for a little while to dry. Plus, some of the cottage gear manufacturers like Tarptent will do it for an extra $20.

Is it the semantics that one is being charged an extra $20 for the seam sealing that is torquing everyone off? You'd rather pay $250 for a seam sealed tent than $230 for a non-seam sealed one, and not have the option to get it without the seams sealed? Apparently the option to get one without the seams sealed "is fightin words" as they say in the South.

Ok, that was my rant…sorry for getting off topic.

I never knew seam-sealing could arouse so much emotion. This is almost as bad as a gun thread. I know……what kind of gun do you guys use to seam seal?

Glue gun??? :-)