MSR Carbon Reflex 2

I'm glad I bumped into this thread as I've been eyeing the Reflex since it was released. I got to "play" w/ one @ REI when I visited Seattle and was then even more anxious. The price however was a MAJOR barrier. The lowest I was able to find it was in the $400-ish range- still too high. I almost settled for a less costly tent, until I bumped into this thread. I too went to Backpackeredge and signed up for the 1st time buyer coupon and as stated it knocked the price down to $307 :)

I opted for the footprint (they had them in stock) and 12% was knocked off that as well.

I think the idea of a small piece of duct tape where the two poles might rub sounds like pretty good insurance.

thanks for all the questions (and answers!), I'm sure I would have had many of the same and now I'm in the know.

Regarding the rubbing….I want to be clear that I haven't noticed any actual rubbing occurring. I was simply worried that it MIGHT occur and if it did, that MIGHT cause damage.

The main pole and cross pole simply are simply pressed against one another (when you route the cross pole above the main pole) so it's possible they could rub if there was a force shaking the tent. It seems they are pressed together somewhat snugly, so if any rubbing does occur it would likely be in unusually extreme conditions. I do agree that a small piece of duct tape is likely a wise precaution, but I don't think I can bring myself to slap some on top of this beautiful carbon fibre.

I cant bare to think putting duct tape on mine and then having it get that sticky residue around the edge of the tape over time. Ill cross the road when I get to it if there ends up being a problem. In other words, Ill call up MSR and be like, "GIVE ME NEW POLES!!!" Just Kidding =)

Supposedly MSR is really good about giving out new poles if you have trouble with yours. I think there's a lifetime warranty on them so we may as well see if this is really a problem before we take steps to address it.

So how goes it with one door and 2 people. I currently have a Zoid2 and love double doors but sometimes need a freestanding.

The single door hasn't been a problem. Sure 2 doors would be nice, but it's not really necessary. When you are getting ready for bed, it's very easy to let the other person past. It's only harder when you are actually laying down.

Regarding freestanding…..the CR2 only needs the 4 corners staked/tied out to be freestanding. Are there times you don't stake/tie your tent?

the CR2 only needs the 4 corners staked/tied out to be freestanding

A tent that falls over when the corners are not staked/tied is not free-standing is it? =-)

A free-standing tent, in a pinch, can be placed on a slab of rock and is still usable without stakes.

So I finally got my new scale and weighed my CR2.

As background, MSR claims:

Minimum Weight: 1270g
Packaged Weight: 1490g

On my scale, I weighed the entire package at 1499g. That breaks down as follows:

Fly: 501g
Tent Body: 580g
Poles: 220g
Main Stuff Sack: 46g
Peg Sack: 7g
Pole Sack: 17g
Pegs: 8 x 10g
Guy Lines: 2 x 20
Pole Repair Tube: 8g

To get on the trail at under 3lbs, you'd have to drop that 1499g down to 1361g.

Here's how I carry the tent:

1) Leave the pole sack at home and instead use the poles to roll up the tent body and fly. With the poles wrapped in the body and fly, they will be safer plus you save 17g.

2) Leave 2 pegs at home in nice weather. In nice weather you just need 6 poles (4 corners, 2 vestibules) because you don't really need the extra guy lines. Result: 20g saved

3) Leave the two guy lines at home (if I'm going as light as possible in an area I know stakes will be fine. Result 40g saved

Total Result: 77g saved, total weight: 1422g

That's obviously over 3lbs, but you drop another 46g if you left the main stuff sack at home. If I was really trying to lose weight I'd do that, but normally I prefer the convenience of the stuff sack. Losing it would get you very close (15g over) to 3lbs. If you left the peg sack (7g) and the pole repair sleeve (8g) you would be at 3lbs and you'd still have everything you need.

According to my scale, MSRs claim of a 1270g minimum weight is not possible. The tent body, fly and poles combine for a weight of 1301g. Since the tent isn't free standing, you really need to bring 6 poles too (60g), so I would say 1361g (or exactly 3lbs) is really the minimum weight.

@ Ashley:

Whoops…you're right I mis-used the term freestanding. I should have said the CR2 'only needs the 4 corners staked to stand.'

Minimum weight of 1.3kg not including stakes is pretty good! Some manufacturers don't include the weight of stakes in the weight of their tents (since people often swap them out anyway). So the minimum possible weight specified by MSR might be not including the stakes. 30g over spec in this department isn't too bad considering what some manufacturers get away with.

It is impressive that MSR managed to drop the weight by about 600g (vs. Hubba Hubba) without compromising very much. Interior space, waterproofing and durability is all pretty much the same.

Basically, you give up the freestanding nature of the Hubba Hubba and 1 door and you save almost 1.5lbs…..oh and there's the little difference of paying a few extra Benny's for it.

a scale that measures grams at least as high as 5 pounds or higher or whatever you think would be good to start with. Id like to invest in one and I dont know what brand names are good, where to go to get a good price on one, and all that fun stuff. Also Id like to get one that can measure larger items, say like a backpack or something like that. Therefore, I can't have a punnie little scale that only has a weighing surface the size of a mug. Thanks!

Check out the thread I just started in the gear deals section. My scale reads to 2000g (4.4lbs) and it was $3.99 Buy It Now on eBay. I was worried it wouldn't be accurate, but after comparing the readings to an expensive digital scale at work I've been very impressed. It's been accurate to the gram on everything.

The weighing surface is small (coffee mug size), but I just hang a clothes hanger on the scale and then hang stuff like a pack, sleeping bag etc on the hanger. You can just hold the scale by hand when you do this, and once the numbers stabilize you know you've got an accurate reading. It's actually quite easy to do. You can zero the scale with the hanger on it so you just get the weight of the item.

You can also elevate the weighing surface by putting something like a Nalgene bottle on the scale and zeroing it. Then you can set stuff like clothes (or your tent in it's stuff sack) on the bottle. Either method works good for weighing larger stuff.

There is probably versions of this scale that read higher than 2000g. I just searched on eBay for '2000g digital pocket scales'. I know there is smaller versions (500g, 1000g)

Update: Here is a 3000g version (6.6 lbs), but it costs a bit more ($15) and it appears a bit larger:
http://cgi.ebay.com/0-1g-X-3000g-DIGITAL-WEIGHING-SCALE-GEM-POCKET-SCALES_W0QQitemZ400062596423QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5d2596c547&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/5000-Grams-0-1-Ounce-Oz-DIGITAL-KITCHEN-LAB-FOOD-SCALE_W0QQitemZ250471593722QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a514536fa&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Ha Ha Ha…looks kind of big but at least you have the option to take the bowl out. But yea, what do you think?

With that thrown out there, I must say Dan I have had some debates about the MSR C2. As you have probably read hear and there, I have been having some serious thoughts about getting a tarp tent. Here is the thing though. Most of them weight just about 2lbs 8ozs. With that said, Id be willing to sacrific enough things to get the Carbon Reflex 2 down to 3lbs 1 oz. Therefore, this about a half a pound difference, 9 ozs if you would like to be precise.

If you look at these pictures and especially the video link on the 13th post of the page, you see how the Double Rainbow faired against the extremest of weather. It is starting to become my opinion that the DR and the CR2 are very similar in design. Therefore, I wonder hot the CR2 would handle these conditions. Will the structure be able to with take this? (not a question to you, just one I am asking out loud, as I am sure you have no experience with the tent in extreme weather like this) Personally, Im not sure it would. For one it has Carbon Fiber poles, they may not be able to take that kind of stress. Two, there are only 6 stake out points. Three on each width and 1 on the front and the back. If there was three on the front and three on the back maybe it would do a little better. I really cant tell for you.

So with my curiousity of whether or not the tent will have the same faith at the DR out of the way, Im starting to think that perhaps caring the 9 ozs is worth it if I decide that this tent is a keeper. I mean we all know that it has a thick floor and more durable materials which wont allow for "misting" so maybe the half pound and odd ounce is worth it. If the two person tart tents were half the weight of the C2R then wed be talking. Even if they were 1lb less, we'd be in business. While I know there are some that are, for instance like the squall series and a couple of other, Im worried about the whole "wind tunnel" effect with them and how well they will be able to handle forceful winds.

That scale looks good…..although if you are going that big you might want to get one slightly bigger that can weigh your entire pack as you're on the way out the door.

Regarding your concerns with handling extreme weather….this is not an issue that concerns me. From the BPL review:

"Although I was not able to test the tent in winds stronger than 20 miles per hour, I at least found that the Carbon Reflex 2 is stable in moderate winds. The tent is basically a dome shape which helps it shed wind."

"we were frankly quite surprised and impressed with the tent's storm and condensation resistance."

"The MSR Carbon Reflex will handle a coating of snow"

Overall, I think the tent is a sturdy enough for a 3 season unit. I think it can handle pretty stiff winds and it would shed snow pretty well.

I do not think the carbon fibre poles are going to be what fails (if something does). I think the poles are quite strong and if they were to break it would likely because of a sharp focused impact force (which cracks the carbon) like stepping on the pole.

If something were to fail, I think the first thing to go would be the poles tearing out of the dirt in extreme winds. If you had poor soil and extreme winds this might be a concern. If you were on sandy soil you might want to tie it off instead.

Besides that, I think a heavy snow load (ie. +6") could take the tent down, but that's not this tents intended purpose and besides, you likely wouldn't accumulate this much snow because the tents shape would shed it well. You'd probably need to get a foot of snow on the ground to get 6" on the tent. I'm just speculating here.

If you are going to ditch the CR2 for a different tent, I would say the two best reasons are:

1) You want something roomier
2) You want something lighter

A single wall tent will generally be roomier (because they need to be so you don't get covered in condensation). If you went with a single wall, you'd save about 1/2lbs and get a roomier tent, but you'd have the condensation and misting issues, plus you'd have less versatility if you want to use a fly/footprint/poles setup or if you want to use it without the fly to see the stars etc. I like how with a double wall you can leave the doors open in the evening and sit inside the bug free area with a nice view still.

If you went with a double wall, you'd be buying a roomier one that would also weigh more….probably at least 1/2lbs more for a roomier 2 person.

So really it's a 1/2lbs heavier but roomier double wall or a 1/2 lbs lighter and roomier single wall. A double wall that is a roomy as the double rainbow will probably be a full pound heavier than the DR.

I would decide on the single wall vs. double wall issue first. If you are okay with going single wall then you've got some nice options. If you don't want to go single wall, then it's a question of weather you want to add weight for a bit more space.

BTW, according to the BPL review the CR2 footprint weighs 179g.

This means the fly (501g), footprint (179g) and poles (220g) weighs exactly 900g. Impressively, MSR claims 900g for this setup which is cool to see they are bang on.

Realistically, you'd want to bring 6 pegs too (60g) and probably the main sack (43g) so you'd be about 1000g for this setup. I think this would be a pretty sick setup for late season camping when bugs aren't an issue. It's just under 2lbs! This is an option you wouldn't have with a single wall.

Without the tent body, you'd also probably have more floorspace because the tent floor is pulled narrower by the poles, which wouldn't be the case with the footprint. You'd probably have 46" or so of width.

BTW, I cut the 'door flap' off the main stuff sack so that saved 3g! Now my main sack weighs 40g.

so far not a single complaint w/ this tent. it is a little on the narrow side, but not overly so (this is my wife and I- two big guys?????). plenty of room to sit up, pitches very easy and have had it in winds approaching 35 mph (no guy lines) and it was fine. a few nights there was mild condensation (fly zipped completely down), nothing dramatic no dripping or the like- if I leave the fly even partially unzipped-very little to no condensation

spent a couple of nights in it w/ moderate rain, handled it w/ no issues

I too ditched the pole bag and wrap them in the main tent, I do take the stake bag though as it doubles as my “rock” bag for bear hanging

only take 6 stakes, leave the main stuff sack and repair sleeve at home

looks like our weights jive pretty well as in that configuration, mine weighs 47.5 oz

I did purchase the footprint, but haven’t used it yet (except to try the tentless pitch in the backyard)- it works pretty slick in that orientation, if I know it’s going to be bug free I’m going to give it a go :)

At 8g, I think the repair sleeve is probably a wise thing to bring along since you'd be totally hooped without it if a pole cracked (or do you have another idea?).

So your CR2 weighs 475oz???? Wow….that's like 30 lbs :)

Tell me more about not using the main stuff sack. Do just toss your rolled up tent into your pack and pack stuff around it to keep it rolled up? Or do you not roll it up and just stuff it in your pack? Do you stuff it in another stuff sack with other gear? I like to keep the poles securely rolled up in the center because I'd hate to take a fall and smack them off a rock.

I'm considering not using the main sack (43g) but I'm also thinking about switching to a lighter sack. The supplied main sack is probably twice as heavy as it needs to be because it's considerably too large and it has that heavy black fabric on the end which probably weighs 5-10g. You can also get mesh sacks that are pretty light like this:
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302699989&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441931557

I'm thinking that in the future I'm going to leave behind the small peg sack, mostly for simplicity reasons. I'm going to put 6 pegs and the repair sleeve in my main gear stuff sack that I keep all my misc stuff in (mug, spork, headlamp, lighter, first aid etc).

that would be pretty heavy :)

I roll the main tent around the poles, secured w/ a ponytail holder and stored up/down in my pack

the fly is rolled (also secured w/ a ponytail holder) and stuffed sideways (in my wife's pack :))

I'd probably ditch the stake bag as well, but it makes a great rock bag for my bear hanging kit

I agree that the stuff sack it comes w/ is overly heavy, I'm sure a lighter one could be found (or ditched completely)

I have a small ti windscreen that in pinch I'm pretty sure I could fashion into a sleeve (w/ a little help from some duct tape)- I hope I never have to test this theory

Interesting…..the hair elastic idea sounds good. I'll try this but I'll probably roll the poles, body and fly all together in one roll to pad the poles more and keep everything together (plus I'd need fewer elastics).

Regarding the rock bag…I never use one. I normally just tie my bear bag rope around a rock or stick and toss that. I guess I do need to be a bit more picky with my rock selection but it's never really been a problem yet. Worse case scenario I could use some other piece of my gear instead of a rock. I'm thinking that my 1L platyBottle would be an acceptable throwing object if it's mostly full. Another object that would work is my rain jacket when it's stuffed into its pocket.

I'm loving your hair elastic idea. I just got 2 old ones from my wife and they weigh 1.5g each. So that's 3g (or 0.1oz) for a pair of them. For comparison, the main stuff sack weighs 43g and that's after I cut off the unnecessarily flap in the opening.

So anyways, that's 40g saved (43g vs. 3g) which is awesome! In total I've shaved off 109g off my CR2 by ditching all 3 stuff sacks, 2 guy lines and 2 pegs. My total setup weighs 1368 grams (3.02 lbs or 48.3oz) or 969g (2.13 lbs or 34.2oz) in fly/footprint mode.

I wonder what other weight could be saved? I don't think there is too much potential with gear modifications. There is probably a 'made in taiwan' tag hanging somewhere inside that weighs 0.1g. You could perhaps trim some of the straps a bit too….not sure this is a good idea because it's nice to have the strap loops at the ends to pull on.

Oh, one idea is there is those clips inside the tent body which are attached to the body via a bit of narrow strap. These appear to be for hanging a gear loft inside the tent, but to my knowledge no gear loft is available. These probably don't weigh much but perhaps a few grams could be saved because there is at least 4 of these.

I would love to check out what the possibilities are for modifications but it's tough to set this tent up indoors since it's not freestanding.

I'm also curious what options there are for lighter pegs. The supplied pegs are quite strong which is nice but they do weigh 10g each which is 60-80g total (about 2-3oz). I wonder if there are some nice titanium pegs out there that weigh about half this….time to do some research.

nice pic :)

I bought six of these:

http://www.ultralightdesigns.com/products/shelter/tiUL-Stake.html

they are light (~ 5g), but I'm not sure how much I'd trust them- pretty puny compared to the MSR pegs (which I've found pretty stout)- been afraid to try them on a trip

Nice pegs. Perhaps you could take one MSR peg to create 'pilot holes' and then use the Ti stakes in those pre-created holes.

I picked up the CR2 footprint yesterday. $35 seems like a good price for this. Unfortunately it weighs 204g which is 25g higher than I was expecting. The BPL review lists the weight at 179g but I'm not sure if they actually measured this, or if that's MSRs claimed weight. Whatever the case, this is 25g higher than expected, which means I would need to buy five 5g Ti stakes just to cancel this out….of course the Ti stakes would still save me weight in regular mode which is what I'll normally be using anyways.

here you go Dan

http://www.moontrail.com/terra-nova-ti-1g-skewer.php

Dan – why the footprint? Just use Polyco. Is it to set it up fly only? If so, I think you might find it remarkably unstable in that format.

You have taken off guylines but do you not ever camp where the wind picks up?