Cuben / Down Quilt

"If wearing your VB beneath your insulation clothing layers whats the point of a VB quilt?"

This is true, in this case, you would only benefit from the weight savings.

At the end of the day, not everyone will be able to or want to use this quilt. You'd really have to look at your gear and your style, and see if this quilt is for you. You also need to plan to have the Epiphany made to handle your lowest anticipated temperature because it's not designed to layer under it…but you could if you were in a jam I guess.

For me, I used to use a VBL for most of my trips (except dead of summer) and always sleep in a light baselayer…so when I contacted Tim about making it, the real goal was to integrate my VBL with the quilt, which is does.

Remember also that this isn't really marketed for the average joe (at east not yet)…when you're buying the lightest custom quilt, made of the lightest fabric, the lightest insulation AND with an integrated VB (which I guess would also be the lightest because it is made of .33 cuben), you're no longer SUL, you're on a new level…you're brain is infected. :)

10 short weeks and i'll be beyond cool. :D Placed my order with Tim today. Very excited.

Thanks guys. Yeah Steve- that makes perfect sense. I'm coming from a perspective of wearing EVERYTHING in the bag and planing my insulation for the trip as a part of my sleep system. You are coming from a minimal baselayer in the bag perspective. For this quilt, your style makes perfect sense. I never understood the vb bag liner but now I see that it's because I was looking through the "insulation clothing to bed" lens.

Hmm… just imagine a thin base layer, cuben shirt and pants, insulation jacket and pants, and the cuben quilt on top. Not everyone would grin considering the comfort (high humidity) but everyone can appreciate how toasty and light that would be!

Now here's a much more common and very idiotic approach- the WP/B down bag shell. I have a Feathered Friends bag with a non-eVent semi-breathable shell but a nylon inner. That means the moisture goes in easily but has a hard time escaping. Seemed like a good idea when I bought it but isn't that STUPID?!? It's a moisture trap. The EnLIGHTened bag is MUCH more logical.

Thanks Steve and Tim- you got me thinking!

Hi Doug

> I have a Feathered Friends bag with a non-eVent semi-breathable shell
> but a nylon inner. That means the moisture goes in easily but has a hard time escaping.

True, very true. Ever thought of reversing the bag, so the nylon shell is on the outside?

Cheers

Having a waterproof shell on the outside of a bag isn't always a bad idea.
Sure, on multi-day trips the down might suffer due to a gradual build up of moisture. However, on a summit bid that involves a single night out, maybe in a bivvy or snow cave, the waterproof shell can help to protect against sudden collapse due to external moisture.

i have been considering making myself (just for me not to sell) some cuben shelled/lined (m90 striped) insulated clothing. These would be the way to go inside this quilt, lighter than conventionally shelled items and integrated VB. IF i ever get to a point where i can make gear for me I will make some up.

-Tim

Hi Tim,
your momentum stripe may work in the low humidity atmosphere outside the VB's. The momentum stripe on cuben clothing inside a VB may not be so successful. My suggestion is: separate the down from from moisture all together by a air valve and faint inflation with a pump sack, not michelin man just the correct loft!

if i am enclosed in cuben vb cloths there shouldn't be enough moisture between the clothes and the quilt to wet out the m90 stripe in the clothes. Also i will make them synthetic not down just to check the concept. I am not into blow up clothes.

-Tim

"separate the down from from moisture all together by a air valve and faint inflation with a pump sack, not michelin man just the correct loft!"

This a neat idea although I'm not sure how an air valve would access all the baffles…maybe this would work if just the shell was cuben and the baffles walls were a breathable material. Tim, have you tried making one of these quilts without the M90? I wonder if the seams and stitching holes would be enough to allow this quilt to loft? It would be slower, but it might work and you'd shave another ounce or so. A slower lofting quilt might be an acceptable compromise as long as it wasn't ridiculously slow.

Another idea is that you could make one side of the quilt from cuben and the other side from a breathable fabric (M90?). This would be heavier obviously, but if the quilt was made to be reversible then users could use it as a vapor barrier quilt or as a regular quilt. Having cuben on the top might trap too much moisture in the down though if it was used as a regular quilt with the breathable fabric on the inside.

Dan,

I made a draft tonsil of all cuben and it didn't let the down loft, and that was just a little bit of down in a small area.

A quilt with a full m90 shell would only save $$ (since its cheaper than cuben) but it would sacrifice weight and weather protection. You couldn't use it m90 in and cuben out as the down would soak and wet out. You could only use it with the cuben in and it would function just like the epiphany, but at a higher weight.

-Tim

That makes sense….sounds like you've got this design dialed.

"That makes sense….sounds like you've got this design dialed."

For now i think so, i'm sure we'll come up with improvements, but right now i can't think of any. The biggest thing i want to fix about this product is the cost. I just am not able to get materials in bulk as i don't have the up front cash. Some day.

-Tim

Mike that's very true. I actually had the bag made with snow caves inmind and that's where it's spent most of its life. And usually 1-2 nights. But the concept doesn't make much sense with today's knowledge and materials. My thinking now is either evacuate the moisture with a nylon or eVent shell or go vb with the bag and/or clothing.

Tim- the clothing makes good sense. However vb has limits when working hard. My vote would be a vb shirt and pants. That way the insulation would still be usable in warmer conditions. But that's coming from a northwest perspective where frigid conditions are rare and it's offen wet and humid in winter. In colder climes, the cuben insulation clothing would be a really cool idea.

Hmm- would you make cuben clothes to order? It would be a blast to trythis

Doug,

"Hmm- would you make cuben clothes to order? It would be a blast to try this"

Probably not on any scale. Maybe as a one time thing just for a few people as my sewing skills show real signs of weakness when making clothing.

I plan to try them as i never use insulated clothes while hiking and just use them around camp. I would most likely still want a vb to use over my base layers for hiking, but i am still keeping my kit lighter even though i would effectively have 3 layers of VB as all my shell/liner fabric would be .33oz cuben saving weight over even the lightest .9oz fabrics.

I am not sure of the merit and have just wanted to give it a try since making the first of these quilts.

Sticking with a climashield insulation <3.7oz combat will make this simple to make and allow me to try it over a variety of temperatures. Using the 5oz would be warm but i think maybe more than i need.

I have also been playing with making the pants convertible to a 1/2 quilt like this

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/4455/index.html?skip_to_post=32055#32055

not sure the weight of the extra zippers are justified as if i am already using it in a quilt the extra warmth of converting the legs into a quilt might be less significant. However, it would give me convertible pants/quilt for warmer hikes.

Again, i have no idea to the merit of any of these ideas, that's why i want to try them.

-Tim

Cuben Fiber 1.2oz Rain Pants – 04/16/2007

Cuben Pants Link

Bill have you tried cuben shelled insulated clothes yet?

-Tim

Tim,

I wear my insulation over the Cuben. That way I can use it in all different temperature ranges.

Layers are the way to go.

sure, just wondered.

I suppose one could use the lightest silk to shell the insulated clothes then wear the cuben under to work as VB and since the cuben is windproof the fact that the silk isn't wouldn't matter.

This way you could also use the insulated clothes without vb by just wearing your wind shirt/pants over them.
Hmm, much to consider.

-Tim

as promised here is a pic of the quilt made from the .75oz OD "breen" material. Some have heard it called the stealth color. Whatever you call it is brown.

The flash makes it look a lot like the "white" cuben, but i assure you there is a brownish hue to it.

-Tim

Had my enLIGHTened cuben quilt out again this weekend. Overnight low was 14.5 degrees F, wind gusts probably up to 20-25 mph, though I can't believe they had any effect. I was comfortable. Quite comfortable. I had the footbox zipped and closed except for about a 3" hole open at the end of the footbox. No cords around me at all, just tucked the quilt in as necessary.

Setup: MLD DuoMid pitched pretty much to ground, no inner, polycro and tyvek groundsheet on 3-4 inches of snow, Ridgerest on that, TiGoat Raven XLW with NeoAir inside, quilt on that. Bivy was open at the head no less than 4-5 inches at any time, often open all across the top. No net used.

I wore: Nunatak Skaha sweater, standard, medium, with hood. Icebreaker 200 1/4 zip top. RAB vapor rise pants with Icebreaker 200 boxers, Smartwool liners, Icebreaker thick hikers and Chugach booties.

Put the Skaha hood down and put on an Icebreaker 200 beanie sometime during the night.

Condensation at the foot area but no where else. Bivy was dry except at the foot. Quilt was dry except at the foot (though top of the quilt, not the inside, and there was absolutely no condensation on the inside of the DuoMid, wind took care of that. Bivy was touching the side of the shelter during the night as I kept sliding around. Still trying to figure that one out, the condensation, not the sliding).

I almost took the Skaha off within 15 minutes of getting in bed I was so warm. Decided to keep it on. Good move, I think. With the quilt/clothing/bivy/pad setup I had, I think I could have easily gotten down to 10 degrees or a few less than that and still have been comfortable. There were times when I thought my legs were a bit too warm, and my feet as well. But I was too lazy to kick off my booties and remove the pants. I never felt cold at all. Not even 'cool.' 10 degrees easily with this setup, and it's all stuff I'd have, nothing extra just for sleeping (In fact I wore the vapor rise pants, 1/4 zip shirt and socks hiking all that day.)

Still amazed at what this quilt will do for its weight.

DI,
Any pictures from your overnighter?

Hi Thom!

None that show the quilt, unfortunately! Perhaps I'll do up a quick trip report. I've not done one before but I'll try!

Doug

Great project. I'm pretty much sold. I want to get one of these for my thru-hike. Do you think it could stand up to nearly half a year of daily use? I'm hoping it does since it'll save me over 3 lbs from my sleeping system, and even more if I don't use my bivy.

we can use a heavier cuben fiber to make it more robust. I have some .48 on order now so within 2 weeks i should have it to determine durability. I have done one with .74 cuben and that is never going to have problems.

-Tim

How fragile is the .33 stuff? Can you put a finger or a toe nail through it with out noticing or does it take a little effort?

Also has any one gotten one of these wet? I would assume it is pretty resistant to condensation. Is this actually the case? If the down does get damp how quickly can it dry?

I've got to say I love this concept and think it could be extended nicely to a down jacket quite easily. A quilt and jacket for less than 20 oz would be sweet.