Storing the TT Scarp

Much appreciated. Mines still stuffed in a box it came in from the last time I went car camping.

Thru trial and error I came up with the same roll-up technique. Beautiful little tent, common sense design. Franco what were some of the comments by C. Townsend in TGO. We can't get the mag. here in Canada. I'm looking forward to using it this winter. Like you I'm playing around with all the configurations etc. I'm thinking of making up a small silnylon tarp attachment (3-5 oz.) to extend rainy weather usefullness.

"Beautiful little tent, common sense design."

Thanks to Hilleberg for initiating it in 1995.

"Thanks to Hilleberg for initiating it in 1995."

The tunnel design dates back to at least 1965.

The Scarp looks like the Akto, which was introduced in 1995. Please name the tent which the Akto is based on prior to that.

Hayes Mountain Equipment produced a tunnel tent in 65. I'm sure someone else designed one even before that. Anyway, way off topic so enough from me. Almost all designs get their inspiration from somewhere.

"looks like" isn't the same as "copy of", "clone of", "rip off of" etc. etc. Yes, from a distance it bears resemblance because of the transverse arch. Beyond that, it's quite different and the differences have already been discussed and/or otherwise obvious.

-H

Yup – that's all I said – 'looks like.'

I never discussed 'better than' or 'superior too.'

I am 60+ years old and have been a gear afficianado since the early 70's and there isn't too much I haven't seen in tent, bag and pack design. My original comments still hold and were intended to be complimentary to the Scarp and it's designer, and HIS comments are right on.

Jim
Chis T mentioned here that he was going to do a review of the Scarp for BPL. Not sure if and when that will happen. The review is very favourable, noting that it is (according to his findings) more of a winter tent than other somewhat "similar" designs.
Some gossip. Surprisingly the next MSR tent to come out is very similar to an existing design. I have no idea at all of what it looks like but when it does I will find a match for it.
When I entered the Carbon Reflex 1 into my match finding programme (Lookalike Pro) , the result was "already in database.See TT Rainbow" (my programme cannot see colours)

Franco

Franco,

That's pretty much how I've always stowed the end poles on my Contrail. Fold 'em inward along with the rest of the tent and roll it up.

Eric

> a review of the Scarp for BPL. Not sure if and when that will happen. The review is very favourable, noting that it is (according to his findings) more of a winter tent than other somewhat "similar" designs.

Hi Franco. I assume you are referring to ultra lightweight copies of the Akto such as the Terra Nova Lazer Competition rather than the eminently stormworthy Akto itself?

http://www.backpacking.net/hilleberg-akto-review.html
"The tent easily shed heavy rain and high winds (60 -70 mph gusts estimated). One of my friends had a tarp tent. He didn't sleep – but rather stayed awake all night hanging on to his tarp and praying (really). My other friend had a Walrus Micro Swift. With the Swift's low profile and with its low end properly facing the wind, it easily shed the wind but the snow and ice practically flattened it. He also had puddles of water inside the tent. I, on the other hand, was snug as a bug. At first, until I got used to the stability of the Akto, I found myself bracing when the wind – roaring like a diesel locomotive – came charging down the mountainside prior to slamming into our campsite. Eventually I rather enjoyed the storm.

For the most part, the rain, snow and ice just slipped off the tent fabric. The wet snow did accumulate a little on the ends but eventually either slid off or I would knock it off from inside the tent. In the morning, I inspected the guylines and found them to be a little less taut – to be expected given the stiff wind and the colder temperature. There was zero water seepage into the inner tent compartment."

For the exact words we will need to wait for Chris to let us know, but the comment had to do with using the Scarp with the extra poles, and in that mode yes it does hold more snow than the "eminently stormworthy " Akto.
Note that the tarp tent mentioned in the quote in your post was not the Scarp.
Franco

> Note that the tarp tent mentioned in the quote in your post was not the Scarp

Sure, I'm assuming that the non-use of a capital letter means it probably wasn't any one of Henry's beautifully made shelters.

I think the review I quoted from shows that the Akto can deal with snow OK. I'll be interested to hear reports on how the Scarp performs, maybe the extra poles would prevent the snow from sliding off, meaning a large buildup of weight overnight. Ice forming round the poles could be a bit troublesome too, how tight are the partial sleeves they run in?

I'm curious if Chris, in light of his "winter tent" comments, is considering the optional crossing poles in his assessment. These would certainly create a more storm-worthy structure than any similar-looking designs, including the Akto. Combined with the inverted-V corner struts, most of the weak points in the canopy's wind-resistance profile are reinforced. The corner struts are crucial; check out how tent poles react when wind-loaded, and how they typically fail. Sierra Designs did some research on this a few years back.

The weakness of the Akto and similar single-arch designs is their inability to hold up under a wet snow load. They just have alot of unsupported canopy, no matter how well-guyed they are. The crossing poles of the Scarp should help with this, although the exterior clips don't allow as much support of the fly as might be possible. However with Franco's "Kocheda" mod, the Scarp appears it might be as storm-worthy as any lightweight tent on the market. This placement of the crossing poles inside the fly allows full support and tensioning of the fly, which would significantly increase it's resistance to collapse under heavy wet snowloads.

The Kocheda mod also creates a design principle I have never seen applied. The crossing poles are internal, and it appears they attach to the internal tent. When combined with the corner-struts, these arches don't receive a windload on their ends. By seperating the support structures for the corners, the poles are really only loaded higher on their arches, where they are able to distribute the stress more evenly. The Kocheda also creates four pole intersections. Combined with the inverted-V struts, the Kocheda mod compares favorably with some mountaineering tents in terms of frame design.

And to think that i just wanted to share some tips on how to store the tent…
Scott thanks for the comments. Are we one and the same ?

Please note that the Kocheda mod is a bit fiddlly. No problem for me but most will provably find it a bit of a pain to do.
So please do not write to HS about this set up, he provably has other things to worry about.
But I like it…

Also on a personal note, I would discourage comments about Akto vs Scarp. There are obvious differences, so choose the one you like.
Franco

You never know Franco, I could see this becoming a feature of future Scarps. As we know, HS is active in these forums and is quite open to incorporating suggestions from us when they seem workable and beneficial. Look at the changes he made to the Rainbow, building in a few features in the update that Miguel had ordered custom, and also updating things like the rain porch addition at the behest of his adoring public. And that's why we adore you Henry: beautifully crafted gear, built by an honest guy who actually listens to his customers, cares what they think, and responds to their wishes.

> more of a winter tent than other somewhat "similar" designs.

> I would discourage comments about Akto vs Scarp.

Apart from yours, obviously.

So you've set the crossing poles up under the fly rather than over. Thanks, I think that answers my questions.

"Comments about Akto vs Scarp"
well that sounded a bit silly even to me …
I like tents. not just Tarptents, but that is the brand that I happen to use when I get the chance to take a hike.
When I bought the Rainbow I had enough disposable income, unlike now, to afford any tent on the market. Not that the Rainbow is THE BEST tent on the market, it was what I liked at the time.
Just before HS started designing the Scarp (for his own use….) I was ready to buy the Akto, to have a tent that would be good enough for our winters without the weight and bulk of the Bibler I have and with a vestibule, unlike the BD I own.
So succinctly, I like the Akto. Hence I would prefer to see comments about what people like about the two shelters rather than why they like or don't like a brand.
Maybe not that obvious to some but I rather discuss things that I like ( TT, Aarn BodyPacks, Caldera Cone, IceBreaker, Exped mat, Western Mountaineering s/b) rather than repeatedly post derogatory or baiting comments on threads about gear that for whatever reason I don't like nor would use.
But obviously others find it entertaining to do so. Well, that is life.
Scott
Yes , Henry does listen. I wouldn't be surprised if he is redesigning the vents of the Rainbow so that they can be sealed up in a windstorm…
Franco

> I rather discuss things that I like rather than repeatedly post derogatory or baiting comments on threads about gear that for whatever reason I don't like nor would use.
But obviously others find it entertaining to do so. Well, that is life.

Come on Franco, you are the one who made the judgement about the scarp being 'more of a winter tent than similar designs'.

I complimented Henry on his beautifully made tents and asked a question about snow maybe not being able to slide off with the crossing poles placed externally as Henry designed them. Your own modification speaks volumes about your own opinion of the Shires design in this respect.
You are saying the Scarp will take more snow load than the Akto. I'm saying it'll have to if the snow can't slide off the Scarp like it does off the Akto. This is not a 'derogatory comment', it's a legitimate discussion of the merits of some aspects of the Scarp's design.

The Akto has proven itself as an eminently stormworthy winter tent for 15 years. The Scarp was released when?

Let's wait a while before we decide which is "more of a winter tent".

Akto tested weight:
= 3 LBS, 12.64 OZ

Modified with removal of metal zipper pulls and use of triptease guys. I note the pegs are 10g each and there are 10 of them.
= 3LBS, 10.8 OZ

Tarptent tested weight
44 ounces (1250 g)
Crossing poles: 12 ounces (340 g)
Total= 3 LBS, 8 OZ

My Akto weighed 3 lbs, 4 oz all packed in…even with instructions.

Obviously there are benefits to the Scarp with respect to the cross poles and snow loading and for some, ventilation. For others, that want the fly to reach the ground, have closable venting, or want a 'warmer' tent, there appear to be options. And yes, that Kerlon fabric is exceptionally slippery. Please note that winter is defined differently for some.

Sorry – carry on.

>You are saying the Scarp will take more snow load than the Akto. I'm saying it'll have to if the snow can't slide off the Scarp like it does off the Akto.

The roof angle is slightly steeper on the Scarp 1 though not enough to make any appreciable difference. There is no inherent reason why snow will slide off one model better than the other. Neither model in single pole configuration has particularly good snow load support–there's just too much unsupported fabric and the roof angles are too shallow for heavy, wet snow to slide off without some assist. Reaching up from the inside and punching the fly periodically ensures that snow slides off. The inverted-V Scarp corners are, however, substantially stronger than single strut corners and wont cave in or tip over under snow loads. The big snow load difference comes from the crossing pole support. Snow doesn't necessarily slide any better in that configuration–the roof angles don't change–but the structure will support much more snow without collapse and that means that you more time to rest or whatever before you need to reach up again and whack the roof.

-H

Thanks for the advice on repacking the Scarp, Franco. I suppose that it will be similar for the Scarp 2? I have one supposed to be delivered tomorrow. But I also am supposed to leave tomorrow for Yosemite. Here’s hoping it is on the morning truck!

One thing about your method is it seems to put the body (top) on the ground which could get it pretty dirty if in the muddy conditions I am expecting in Yosemite the next four days. (At least at the lower elevations.) Silly me forgot to order a footprint. Maybe I have some plastic in the shop to use.

Has this been an issue for you?

Hi Ray
Folding the tent up with the bottom (black silnylon floor) up is the way I do it with the Contrail and the Rainbow. If the ground is wet /muddy then the top of the fly will get dirty but with silnylon it does not really matter, you just dry it when you can.
Of course even when it is raining often enough the ground under the tent is still dry-ish anyway.
The floor of the Scarps is rectangular (52"x86" for the 2) so pretty easy to shove a groundsheet that will fit under there.
I very rarely use a groundsheet.

Roger
The comments I posted about winter use were paraphrasing some of the comments Chris T made on various forums, not my own opinion.
I do appreciate that you try your best with your "I love Tarptents but…" if you really like them, then buy one otherwise I can't see what your point is.
(actually I do but I let the rest work that one out)
And yes I would suggest that if you like the Akto, you should get one of those, however you are not going to fit inside that…
Franco