New 2009 Mont-Bell Down Bags

[Mike W]

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[Michael Landman]

FWIW…I have an early 30° MB UL SS #3 (that is a lot of letters for an abbreviation!)bought late in 2004. I have slept in it down to 22° using an InsuMax pad on unfrozen ground wearing a FF Hyperion vest, thick wool socks, MW long sleeve top, LW bottoms, hiking pants, a beanie hat and a hiking shirt under the vest (should have put it over the vest, this was also all the cloths I had with me except my Precip jacket). I slept in my SMD Lunar Solo pitched tight to the ground in an open pine forest with little wind and clear skies. With that clothing, I was at my limit in the bag. If I had an insulating jacket, it would have been fine. At lease the condensation stopped as it was freezing solid to the tent. in just a base layer bottom and a tee I have been fine at the rated temps.
YMMV, but I am happy with my bag choice – price/weight/comfort/quality

[David Ure]

The comparisons to WM need to be taken with a grain of salt. First, you can't hold those bags up to a light to look for fill as the fabric is black. Second, most of them (the lite series) are exceptionally narrow in comparison to even a 'relaxed' MB stretch bag such that the wider bag with the same fill is going to appear less lofty. MB gets around that by having two layers of fabric – one to hug and the other to remain fairly stretched to allow the inner fabric to have 'movement' laterally. Did you know that the baffles are not sewn through? You can actually move the down around if required. There is a picture on these forums showing a comparative WM to a #3 MB UL SS. The WM appears to be a bit more lofty. Of course it is several inches narrower.

[Jim MacDiarmid]

(Ed. for clarity)

I was concerned at first when I was in the store and comparing a SS#3 to a Summerlite. But I realized I was being silly, that the see through was due to the light-colored fabric, where the summerlite is lined with black. I'm new to high-quality sleeping bags. My old bags were always of the synthetic SportsMart variety. My first down was a Marmot Sawtooth last year. It's a 15* bag, so I was used to that loftiness/amount of fill.

If my new Spiral Down #3 was underfilled, it would weigh less than the spec'd weight, which it does not. I was trying for a bit last night to move the down from the bottom of the bag to the top, with limited success. But it was my first try.

As the Spiral Down is not a stretch bag, it doesn't hug the same way the SS model did. The Spiral Down doesn't feel much narrower inside than I recall the summerlite feeling. I have broad-ish shoulders but am otherwise a fairly narrow guy, and I didn't have much issue with the narrowness of the summerlite. My girlfriend, who watched me try on both the summerlite and the SD#3 said that I looked less constricted when moving my legs around in the SD#3 than the summerlite, in which I could move around but was straining at the seams a bit more.

The primary difference to me is that the MB is not a full length zip. My feet are actually one of the first places where I feel overheated and I like to be able to vent them. When I looked at the picture of the MB bag online, I mistook the hanging loop at the bottom of the bag for the zipper pull and assumed a full length zip. I closer examination the picture would have made my mistake obvious. (Also, the SD bags don't have the cinch cord at the bottom to seal off a feel inches if the bag is too long)

I'm not sure how I was describe the fabric of of Spiral Down. It's not slick. Its' got kind of a texture. You could call it 'rough', but I wouldn't. It feels like the surface of the REI trek mat, actually. It feels durable despite being 12 denier.

The question is, is the full zip worth paying 40% more for the summerlite? From a quality/fit standpoint, I don't think it would be. The zip is just a personal choice.

[EndoftheTrail]

Pray tell, is the Spiral Down a 2/3rd length zipper? Yeah, for me, I would want a full-length zipper for a 3-season bag — for maximum ventilation options.

[Jim MacDiarmid]

Yeah, the zip stops 26" from the bottom of the bag. In other words, for a 5'10" person in the 6'4" bag, it comes almost all the way up to my knees. It does have a double zip for venting.

It's the question I'll be debating this weekend: is that full length zip worth the signficant extra money? Camping either on the CA coast or in the Sierra above 7,000', I won't likely be facing nighttime temps that get above 50*, I think. (and above 50*, I could probably using a sleeping bag liner + my AMK Thermolite bivy.) So will I need that extra venting? I'll just have to spend an hour or two while watching tv tonight laying in the bag. If I can stay comfortable in 65*, I'll not worry about the length of the zip. If I'm too warm, then I'll clear off my back porch and spend an hour out there this weekend with lows in the mid 40s a night. If I'm still warm then, it's time to return the bag and get the summerlite.

[EndoftheTrail]

James:

As stated, I dislike 2/3rd zips. However, in all my camping up in the Sierras (late spring to early fall) — I've never felt the need to open up my bag for max. ventilation.

Best of luck with your final decision!

[Praveen M]

Hey Ben,

I hear you on keeping an open mind and letting the bag prove itself. I'd have reconsidered except I just didn't find it THAT comfy or roomy to begin with compared to a good quilt or my Valandre bags.

I've been bitten plenty from past similar experiences to become much pickier about consistent loft. Case in point is the Golite Ultra 20 quilt which BPL & plenty of others reviewed favorably. The one I originally received was underfilled in some chambers & I froze my nuts off when temps dropped below freezing. The weak spots were acting as sieves draining all the warmth over the course of a night at the cold spots even using a bivy to block all drafts. And yes it weighed to specs but didn't perform so.

No such problem with a friend's summerlite which was substantially more lofy!

So what I saying? This stuff isn't always obvious and appearances can sometimes be deceiving but it ain't all magic alchemy either. There nothing special about Montbell's down that will compensate for the minimal loft & cold spots I felt in the bag (PHD, Valandre, etc use noticeably better quality down for what it matters). Quite likely most folks sleep warmer than I do so these failings don't matter as much.

We all gotta act on our own individual experiences in the end…

[EndoftheTrail]

Praveen:

I wrote my response up above because most people's initial reaction (my own included as well) is that MB bags appear "underfilled". Methinks that MB down is as good as any — although even the best still must follow the laws of physics. MB can get away with using less down not because its down is so special — but because of its efficient bag design.

But "underfill" is apparently not your only concern. Since you also find the bag less than comfortable/roomy — then it's obviously the wrong bag for you.

One quick caution — given how you are comparing the MB with "a good quilt" and find the MB not roomy enough — it'll likely be a "ditto experience" with the WM Summerlite as well.

We all have our own preferences. For example, I crave interior space in my tent. I've purchased and then sold off quite a number of solo tarptents because as much as I am seduced by their UL weight — I just can't feel comfy inside. After all the agony, I settled for carrying a few extra ounces and am much happier overall.

If you feel the same about space inside a sleeping bag — then maybe shop for another Valandre or even a quilt???

[Lynn Tramper]

"I must be odd.
I like the bright colours."

Hmmm, memories of green and black tights come to mind…

I don't generally like WB colours (except the black), but find I get used to them when I actually own and love one. My patrner has that shiny metallic weird green down UL inner that looked soooo gross when it arrived, but now I think it looks pretty cool. I even got used to Roger's old avatar.

[Jim MacDiarmid]

Ali,

I've never used the Flash pack for weekend trips. I can just barely fit all my weekend gear into an REI Jet UL 35 liter pack, which has just under twice the ci of the flash pack, plus side pockets and a lid. I have to carry a bear can on all my trips, or I choose to for peace of mind. That along rules out the flash pack. I have the flash pack for day hikes/peak bagger/travel/work. I just with it had one measly outside pocket for a thermos/water bottle. Also, I just got it for christmas and am annoyed to see this years models also com in red, my favorite color. Also the twin daisy chains on the new vs the single daisy chain on the old would make it much easier to lace up a shock cord for tarp/sleeping pad storage on the back.

[Art Sandt]

Just a quick note from a summerlite user. Someone mentioned the Montbell bag having areas of thin loft (where there is not any down between the two layers of fabric). In fact, I've noticed this with my summerlite before. The continuous baffles permit down migration, and the down tends to migrate down from on top of my body to the sides of my body if I don't take a minute the fluff the bag up and shake the down to the top side (which is pointless anyway because I'm a side sleeper and will roll with the sleeping bag at night). I think this is just what happens when you build a down bag with such thin loft to begin with because the warmer WM bags I've used have not had this problem. All the more reason to go with a 40 degree Climashield quilt for summer use and a 20 degree down bag for 3 season use, but that's just me.

That said, I've only had cold spots when parts of my sleeping bag have gotten wet. Even though it seems it, I wouldn't say that my summerlite is truly underfilled because with underfilled bags you'll have cold spots appearing in random places during the night (trust me, I've been there, done that, and have gotten fed up with a certain brand to a sleeping bag I bought promising to be good to 0 degrees but turning out to be so underfilled, cold air seeped in through gaps in the down fill at 30 degrees)–this has never happened to me with the summerlite, though.

[Jim MacDiarmid]

Art,

Thanks for the input. I think the deciding issue for me is going to be full vs 2/3 zip.

I thought about a 20 degree bag. I really like it in theory as it could cross over into 4-seasons somewhat. But my entry-level down bag from last year – A Marmot Sawtooth long 15 degree – had me way too hot unless the temp got into the mid-30s. It actually had a pretty narrow comfort range for me – snow camping in a forecast low 20s, I got chilled in the middle of the night and had to put on a synthetic insulated jacket.

Now the Marmot has 24 oz of 600 power down. A WM Alpinlite Long 20 degree (closest in size to the Sawtooth) has 21 oz of 900 power down. I think I'd be roasting in anything above the 20s. A 30 degree bag seems about right to me for 3 season Sierra camping. I actually had originally been looking at the Marmot Atom 40 degree bag but came around to WM and MB after reading the lukewarm-ish review of the Atom on BPL.

[Art Sandt]

I hear you. Too hot is no good for me either, especially if I can't vent my feet. The Summerlite IS a good bag for summertime camping in the mountains and from what I hear (and from my experience with Montbell's other products), Montbell makes some good bags as well. Whatever model you choose, I doubt you could go wrong with a bag from either maker.

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