Does bear spray work with black bears and what brand?

Can to following be dangerous to full grown adults:

Driving: Yes
Bees: Yes
Dogs: Yes
Other people: Yes
Grizzly Bears: Yes
Black Bears: Yes

If I was a newbie to backpacking in Bear Country, and was reading posts like,"Black Bears are not dangerous to adults", I might think, "what the heck, then I guess it's okay to store my food in my tent, etc., and be careless around camp.

My train of thought nowadays, is that if I don't do EVERYTHING I possibly can to keep a clean camp so that black bears do not become habituated and lose their fear of humans, then not only am I endangering the lives of other hikers, but the bear will probably end up being killed as well.

It is our responsibility to keep a clean camp, don't sleep in the same clothes that we cook in, hang our food, etc., so that we can safely co-exist with these animals.

"don't sleep in the same clothes that we cook in, "

To be honest, I've never thought about this. I don't usually sleep in the clothes I cook in, but I've never done anything special with them either (in fact, they're usually in a stuff sack serving as my pillow). Is this really a concern if you don't spill something on yourself?

And, FWIW, this is a serious question, not trying to start another set of arguments. Disagreements are fine, but "If you don't think or act like me you're just stupid and shouldn't be in the woods" comments aren't all that helpful. Information, now that's helpful.

Douglas, here is some information from my personal experience. Before I go any further this is just my personal experience. If you discount my years in the boy scouts I have 22 years of backpacking experience, limited as that may be I tend to spend a great deal of time in the back-country including 365 consecutive nights in and around the Tahoe basin between a tarp and in the winter a snow cave. I have not once used a bear bag and have never had a negative bear experience while sleeping. I use my food as a pillow and usually sleep in the clothes I cook in. i have had bad bear encounters during the day but that's not the question here today. This has been a below average year for me but I still have slept over sixty nights this year in bear country in the PNW and Oregon. So my personal experience is that if you choose your site well and keep a clean camp you can spend thousands of nights out without bear issues. My thinking might be different but then I don't filter my water either but that's a different topic.
edit caption Lizzie waiting for me to feed her.

From personal experience I can say that it does work. I sprayed a charging mom protecting her cubs not only once but twice. She ran off after the first time I sprayed her but came charging right back again on 3 legs using her other leg wiping her face. If I would have needed to spray her a third time I would have been screwed as my can was empty. If you decide to pack keep it readily available. Mine came with a holster and I loop it through my waist belt. I not only pack mine for bears but for badgers, wolves, moose, and humans.

I carry this model od UDAP.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp;jsessionid=RZ5DN0OW0MPG5LAQBBISCOVMCAEFEIWE?id=0047644228701a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&Ntk=Products&QueryText=udap&sort=all&Go.y=8&_D%3AhasJS=+&N=0&Nty=1&hasJS=true&Go.x=15&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form23&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1

I got your meaning, Nate. And yes, the odds of getting attacked by a bear while hiking in the back country are so remote that you feel free to go ahead and say 'bears are not dangerous to people'. If they were the terrors that most television shows make them out to be then I dare say there would be almost no one hiking in areas where bears can be found. If any one of you knew the chance of a bear attack was anywhere even approaching likely, would you still go backpacking? I sure wouldn't.

There is one thing at the root of every one of these discussions (machismo aside)- the thought of getting eaten is so horrifying that it easily conjures up irrational thoughts. The products and devices marketed as protection from bear attack (be it a can of spray or the large bore sidearm that hunters are apt to carry) are simply targeting in on that irrationality to make a profit. I'm excluding bear resistant food storage form this.

If you step back and look at it objectively, the idea of carrying around any object that could potentially (no guarantee) save you from an occurrence as unlikely as a bear attack is certainly irrational.

I know its been said a thousand times (I just said it in another thread) but the drive to the trail head is likely to be astronomically more dangerous than any animal related incident you will be involved in before returning to your car. Yet, how many people carry bear spray are worried about that? I would venture a guess and say next to none.

I think trekking poles work pretty well as a deterrent. They make noise, the bear hears it and runs away. This one ran up a tree, unfortunately, when it heard me coming.

Like a gun, I think you have to evaluate whether you are willing to pull the trigger on the pepper spray. I really wouldn't want to get close enough to spray anything in a bear's face. If a bear happened to get close to me, like if I was sleeping and it woke me up, I really don't think I'd want to spray anything at it.

Is Ryan's the first post in this thread about spray actually being deployed? Has anyone else used bear spray as intended?

Ryan, where were you? What type of bear was it?

It was a black bear in Northern Idaho while I was archery elk hunting.

Or irony?

I think its facinating we're still talking about this subject after so long.
Ryan – Sounds like you only got two good shots on that bear, how big was the can? I think Ryan is the second person I've heard of running out of spray.
I guess the moral is take a full sized can, I've head quit a few stories of bears that came back for more.
The only time a bear was close to hurting me was when a mother and four cubs moseyed into the road and almost caused a three vehicle collision.
I've been bumming around the woods one way or the other most of my life and so has my dad. We've seen bears but never had a problem. I do take simple precautions. The reason is I can for very little inconvience. Bear Spray is light and cheap and so is a bear bag systeem. Of course I'm often responsible for other peoples safeIty. That said I've been to two funerals for murder victoms so I'm watching my fellow man as much if not more than the bears. I don't play the "It probably won't happen to me/us" because it DID happen us and it sucks. I still take risks but not silly ones that I don't have to take.

Just to put things into perspective- I will again post this chart

Please note that approximately 93% of the "Other Specified" is Horses and Cattle. Of the bear deaths listed by Wiki from 1991-2001 (comparing with the chart above, which makes Wiki seem accurate and listing only the deaths that applies to this forum, I didn't count cabin break ins, etc)only 7 were in the total US, while hiking or camping and 4 of those where in Alaska.
For those of you who hike in the lower 48 that makes 3 total over 10 years and 2 of these were in Glacier Park. So 1 death while hiking or camping outside of Glacier Park in 10 years compared to 533 bee sting deaths makes one think if we are putting our time and money worrying about the wrong enemy?

You would need to carry dog spray while hiking or wear a Beekeepers suit to beat the odds.

There is logarithmic increase of seeing a Bee/Hornet/Wasp then seeing a bear, and looking at the chart, the chance of dyeing from something other then a bear is almost 100%

So why don't people wear a beekeepers suit while hiking? Could it be that, it would be or look ridiculous? Yes.

Could the same be said for bear spray- you make the call.

No beekeepers suit for me, but I take medication to treat a sting and / or an allergic reaction. I do drive to the trailhead, but while I do I wear my seatbelt, "Just in case". I also take bearspray and / or other anti-bear devices where they roam, by much the same reasoning as the seat belt and the sting / allergic reaction medication. All of them are just in case, but not in place of avoiding beehives, driving safely, and being bear-aware. I'm not sure comparing a beekeepers suit to bearspray is accurate… A beekeepers suit compared to a shark cage or an electric bear fence…Maybe.

Tad- exactly.

I was trying to make that same point when I stated that carrying something to protect you from bears (when the odds of attack are so small) borders on irrationality. Especially when there are so many things that are much more likely to kill you that people take little or no precautions over.

But then again, if it gives folks peace of mind to carry bear spray and they don't mind the weight, then what the hay, go for it. What's that silly expression again? Hike your own hike?

Just reading about statsitical studies today. It would be interesting to break down all the data on animal attacks. For example what groups (hunters, fishermen etc.) get in trouble the most often. I suspect that backpacking would come out as the safest . Hunters for example mask their scent and pussyfoot around the woods and often camp with fresh meat around. In a sense they do everything you're not supposed to do. An obviously they generally come home safe. Maybe this is why so many grizzly attacks seem to involve hunters? Obviously ANYONE is fairly safe in the woods but I think the debate would be more intelligent if we knew for example that a particular factor is involved in most attacks.

Regarding the query from the gentleman in San Francity, the rancher I mentioned was Sven Satre of Tatlayoko Lake, BC, killed by a Black Bear. He was NOT a "newbie" and was working on his ranch when attacked without provocation, killed and partially eaten.

My personal experience with bears started in 1956, I have taught "bear safety" to hundreds of forestry crew workers, tourists and divers other people. I am a multi-season wilderness fire lookoutman and my concern here is to simply try to put some actual experience into this discussion, as BC has very probably the greatest density of bears of any jurisdiction on the planet.

Spray CAN be effective, BUT, is is NOT a "panacea" and anyone who takes the bear issue lightly if hiking/camping in BC is very likely to severely regret such an attitude. I dislike "macho" more than most do as I have seen it cause injuries on logging shows, major forest fires and even reforestation projects; being "bear smart" is NOT "machismo", it is simple common sense.

Who gets attacked most often? Hunters and people in areas where food is easily accessible. Often hunters are attacked because they are trying to not be heard or seen and they surprise the bear, or are returning to a previously taken animal and encounter a bear who has claimed the carcass (food source, or are in the process of cleaning a recent kill (food).

Shelton book: “Bear Encounter Survival Guide”
By clicking on ‘click to look inside’, you can read the first several pages. It looks interesting.

Egads. Terrible.

Yes, proper precautions are in order. I've actually read quite a lot of literature on bears (a bit obsessed with them) and came to the conclusion that blacks are not as dangerous as grizzlies through that literature. Anyway, that's just awful to hear about and surely a tragedy. Seems like there are so many more fatal animal attacks in BC than in California….the mountain lions up there are pretty gnarly too, from what I've read.

You know, I haven't read this book so maybe I'm out of line here but even the cover is inflammatory. A picture of a brown bear's foot, claws prominently on display, measured to demonstrate the full capacity of the animal to inflict grievous harm on the unwary visitor to the local state park. I mean, come on. Sure the book might be full of useful facts (which I am immediately doubting based on the cover) but hen someone sees this book cover, what are they going to think? Most likely 'Man that will f@&k you up!' or something similar.

Read the back cover- "Are your tired of confusing and contradictory information on bear aggressive behavior and how to survive it?"

Not only is this poor grammar but its flat out sensationalism. It sounds like a bad cable TV infomercial. There's too much of this type of book, which leads to too many people afraid of animals they don't need to live in fear of.

Respectful of, yes. Fearful of, no.

This debate reminds me of the issue of light pollution and street lights.

Study after study shows that street lights do not make people safer from crime or traffic accident, but they make them FEEL safer. Street lights are expensive and damaging to the nighttime environment, but we'll never eliminate them because of the illusion that they provide safety.

The chances, according to statistics provided in this thread, of being attacked by a bear are exceedingly small. (Some areas have a marginally increased risk, I will grant you.)

However, bear spray is cheap and it doesn't weight much. Personally, I don't carry it. However, if it provides a sense of security to the folks who do, then why hassle them about it? It helps them to feel safe, and they will almost surely never use the stuff anyway. We all have our fears, quirks and hiking prejudices. Hike your own hike, and be tolerant of the prejudices of others.

BTW, I've only seen bears twice on the trail, both of them in National Parks on the AT, and both of them sticking their heads into the cars of tourists who were stupid enough to feed the cute, 300 pound beasts.

The only times I wished I had pepper spray was when I was rushed upon by unleashed dogs. ("Oh, my. Sparky is usually so friendly.") Perhaps, we should carry the spray to protect us from unleashed pets. Personally, if I saw a bear in the wild, I'd whip out my camera, not my pepper spray. ;-)

Stargazer

Sorry, had to respond, but do you seriously believe that Streetlights have no purpose in crime reduction? Have you ever lived in a (real) city? Walked home late from the subway on a less-than-crowded thoroughfare?

There is simply no efficient way to study whether streetlights are 'effective' because if you compare areas that have them to areas that don't, the areas that *don't* have them are by-their-nature already less prone to crime. Or else they'd have streetlights. So unless you have some study where an entire city shut off it's streetlights for a long enough time for people to react (a month, at least) and then compared/contrasted crime patterns before and after in those same areas….well, the study would be bunk.

Street lights, I'd wager, are far more useful than Bear Spray.

Were the street lights off after Katrina?

…there is too much of this type of book…, grammar????

Russell Swanson, you admit to not having read the book and I will just point out that Gary Shelton has taught bear defence courses for the BC Forest Service, BC Workman's Compensation Board and various large resource development firms and private consulting firms here in B.C. He is recognized as an expert in this field and your comments demonstrate a rather amusing attempt to criticize a book-philosophy of which you have NO real knowledge.

I would not bother with this reply, except that people like you, who have little or no actual field experience with bears often make comments of this type which can deter others from obtaining valuable information.

Gary Shelton's book is currently the most realistic and effective "manual" for learning what WORKS in bear encounters available. This is WHY hundreds of working professionals use it constantly here in northern and western Canada.

Dewey. Please state how you know I have little or no actual field experience with bears.

Re-read my post. I add that I freely admit the book may contain valuable information. Its obvious that oyu like the book. I can appreciate that and I'm not discouraging people from reading it- read away!

Here is what I am saying- people have irrational fears of bears and Gary Shelton is contributing to this. When they pick up that book, they see the ginormous paw on the cover, flip it over, and read a statement like the one I quoted and instantly, their growing case of bearanoia is supported by a recognized expert in the field.

You seem to be implying I am stating bears aren't capable of harming people or that we traipse about the woods, willy-nilly and without regard to our own safety. I'm not. The point I am attempting to get across is that there is far too much concern over a potential incident, the odds of which are almost negligible.