Scarp v.s. Akto

Correction – Dave I contacted Henry today to ask for an extended fly with a Scarp 2 and also either a Scarp 1 or Rainbow (deciding between them for a solo shelter). I love Henry's designs and was very much looking forward, but wanted an extended fly to make them as useful as possible for windy and winter weather, so I could snug the fly down to the ground when needed. Unfortunately Henry said he won't supply them this year. If you hear otherwise, please let me know ASAP, it would make the difference for me:

Henry: "We can't/don't do longer fly mods. The clips are no problem. At some point down the road it's possible we'll make a different fly but not this year. If you need a fly that goes all the way to the ground then none of our shelters are right for you."

"If you need a fly that goes all the way to the ground then none of our shelters are right for you

We have had good results by 'cross staking' the Double Rainbow flys to the ground. ie don't use the zipper, just pull the two edges of the fly across eachother as tight as they will go and stake them individually.

Seems like a fly tight to the ground might create a lot of condensation issues, which would likely defeat the purpose of Henry's designs?

I have a Saivo and a a Soulo and consider these about the finest tents I have had or used in decades of serious use.

They are the first tents I have totally trusted in severe BC winter weather and I am completely satisfied with them.

For a lighter option, I use my Integral Designs MKI-XL and Mega Sola and expect to purchase an ID MKI Lite later this year and perhaps a Hilleberg Jannu for a possible trip up north in the Yukon.

Sometimes, as in solo treks in really remote regions, the slight extra weight of a Hilleberg is your best option and I find the Soulo superior to the Akto for my uses, YMMV, of course.

Lynn, will that work with the Rainbow and the Scarp 1 and 2? Do you have a photo or would you be able to sketch a quick drawing?

Pamela, not at all. You see, I don't want to snug to the ground in all conditions – it's not necessary, and I'd like the ventilation from a slight breeze. However, in windy or very cold conditions, being able to snug to the ground makes the shelter more versatile. In windy conditions, that few inches open at the edge of the fly is going to really catch the wind, increasing tent noise, putting pressure on the fabric and reducing warmth.

Also, you can block condensation from the ground by placing a thin garbage bag cut to shape over the vestibule ground to block moisture – that's what we do with our Hilleberg Allak vestibules in winter – works like a charm.

Chris T emailed in response to the lack of an extended fly: "It's a shame as down to the ground flys would extend the usefulness of the [Tarptent] shelters." I couldn't agree more. That said, Henry pointed out in winter, when there's snow, you could build a snow wall to block the gap between the fly and the ground, or sink the shelter – both good ideas. The problem will be in situations where there's high wind or driving rain without snow to form a block.

I may try to sew a fly extension myself, or find someone to help me with this, as the Scarp 2 is the closest my wife and I have found for a 3 season 2 person shelter that will work well for us in most conditions. I think it's a great tent, and as Henry pointed out, every tent and piece of gear for that matter is a compromise. I just think this one will be near perfect for us with an extended fly.

Time to put on the DIY/tinkerer hat…

Dewey, like you we love our Hilleberg Allak. I mean love it as much as you can love a piece of gear. I couldn't agree more about their use in severe conditions. They are very high quality and superbly designed tents.

I would say no less of Henry's tents – they are very well designed and made – they are just different tents for different purposes. I wouldn't want to take the 6 lb 6 oz Allak on 3 season non-mountaineering trips when I'm not expecting very high winds and I'll have to carry the shelter on my back (as oppposed to kayak trips). For backpacking we're looking for a 2 person tent like the Scarp 2, which will offer a lot of what we're looking for in a lighter package.

We may just make an make an extended fly for the Scarp 2 or find someone with better sewing skills to help with that.

Hi EJ,

It wouldn't work with the Scarp shelters, but it would work with the rainbow. Lynn's method is to batten down the hatches by pegging each half of the vestibule "sideways" across the entryway. The two halves obviously then overlap each other, which makes getting in and out a little more tricky.

It wouldn't work with the Scarp because there is only one door "flap" and pegging it close to the tent (instead of zipping it shut) would be silly because you can't do the same with the other half (so there's a big hole left for the wind to come in).

Can anyone recommend a good tent mod/repair shop that will work with SilNylon to extend the fly for us?

Thanks Ashley, got it. Good idea for the Rainbow. Have been considering the Rainbow, Scarp 1 and the SMD Vamp (if they show the design soon) for solo shelters (keep in mind I'm 6 ft 185 lbs and a sprawler so the Lunar Solo e and several other shelters I've checked out wouldn't be as comfortable as the more spacious Rainbow and Scarp 1).

One way of getting it closer to the ground would be to dig a little hole in the ground where each end of the main pole sits. That would effectively lower the tent fly compared to the rest of the ground.

Dave
"I really like the design and I think it corrects some of the inherent flaws in the Akto design on which it appears to be based"
One of those is lack of sufficient ventilation in some conditions. If you don't have a good air intake at the bottom you are not going to create much of an air flow. Hence the high sides of the Scarp.
My opinion is that once this will be field tested it will be less of a problem that it appears.
Anyway if that bothers you, why not make your own "low fly" version ?
I would not , but just for fun I did…
The first would be a permanent "solution" (shorter pole) the second is simply lowering one side (you could do both) by digging a hole under the pole and keeping the grosgrain ribbon low with a peg or a stone. In the second picture the fly is 1.5" 1.5" above the ground.
Franco

Ashley, good idea but you'll still run into a problem if camped on rock or very hard ground.

Just my opinion, but the comment about the Akto being too low and cramped is very subjective, and may cause potential buyers to steer clear of this fine shelter.

I am 6'1" tall and weigh around 200 lbs with a long torso, and I can sit in the Akto just fine. And it has plenty of space for me, as a solo tent. The Akto was modeled to size by Rolph Hilleberg, who is 6'4".

I personally prefer the hoop style models because of their lighter weight and excellent space to weigh ratio.

I camp above timberline where it is very exposed… horizontal rain and sleet are very common with winds 40+mph. My two favorites for spring, summer and fall are the Akto and the Nallo 2.

Disclosure: I am an authorized Hilleberg Retailer, but am also an avid user as well.

How about a variation of Franco's suggestion: shorten the pole permanently, and then in hot/windless conditions carry a small section of "pole extender" to raise the pole back to the same length as originally. You can do this buy using the extra bit of pole that you cut off and "joining" it with the rest of the pole using a slightly wider section of tubing. This technique, as you may know, is commonly used as a repair method for snapped poles in the field. The extra weight would be minimal and you could choose to raise or lower the pole according to conditions. No extra fly to carry or get in the way when you don't want it.

I like it…can anyone think of a reason why this wouldn't work well?

Darn, have to run to a meeting, just when this was getting very interesting. Know what it's like to go forum cold turkey for a few hours in the middle of a good discussion thread?

Ashley,
that was funny because I was uploading the pics as you were posting your comment. Yes, your idea could work for some, note however that when you use the shorter pole the tent will need a bit of fiddling to get it to sit taut.

Charles ,
if I were selling the Hillebergs as you do, I would be using them as well . As a matter of fact I fit very nicely inside the Akto, however my head just misses the inner if I sit right in the middle and I am only 5'6". Obviously that is not a problem with some taller folk but some do not like that nor tolerate having the fabric only a few inches above the face when laying down.
To me one shelter is not "better" than the other, just different. Enogh to differentiate the two.
Franco

Snap, Franco. =-)

I'm enjoying this thread and have considered both tents…..

Franco,

I was shocked to read you are only 5'6"! After seeing your avatar over the years I thought you were like 6'4" or better. Good photoshop work on that one ;)

Just the angle I quess

There is no doubt that the Akto is a very clever design. Having played with the Exped Vela and the Terra Nova Laser, I found the Akto easier to set up and appeared to me stronger than the two. In fact at about the time Henry was testing the Scarp I was thinking of buying the Akto for myself.
The materials used in the Hilleberg are no doubt first class, so Charles does have a point.
I prefer the flexibility of the two doors/vestibules and the fact that I can set it up many different ways, but others will like the extra wind protection and beefier materials of the Akto.
Franco
5'6" is the recognised International Standard Height. (according to me)

Franco used to be 6'4" but after trimming excess height is now just 5'6"… which allows him to fit into smaller, lighter sleeping bags. No significant loss of functionality, except perhaps reaching items on the top shelf at the supermarket.

;-)

Every time I would see Franco's Avatar i would think "that is a tall dude". I guess the poles and the angle create an illusion……

I'm 6'3" and the only advantages are my nose hairs are always trimmed, no boogies are hangin' out, I get to reach everything stored high at work and I hit my head alot. I forgot…I have to buy long sleeping bags and I can't fit in a lot of tents and shelters.

Ryan

To be specific, the Scarp could well be one foot shorter and it would be just right for me…
However Henry has to take into account those few vociferous and unnecessarily tall people.
As for the supermarket suitability, you tall people miss out on the bargains. They are ALWAYS on the bottom shelf. Yes I still have to bend down to get to them.
I like that picture of the bird, never thought that it made me look tall.
Those poles are Black Diamond BTW…
Franco

"I may try to sew a fly extension myself, or find someone to help me with this"

That's what I would do, but only after trialing the tent 'as is' with the method of digging a hole/shortening the pole. If the hole works then that seems like a viable (and lighter) alternative. Adding some extra silnylon to the edges of the fly is not a difficult DIY, though sewing silnylon can be slippery.

Chris and Franco, without any adjustment, how many inches are there between the bottom of the fly and the ground?

As Lynn suggested, I'm going to fiddle with the Scarp 2 setup as is first. If I find it will be more versatile to extend the fly, I'll extend it and sew on some adjustment mechanism (probably velcro tabs) to leave the fly up in mild weather.

Anyone know where's the best place to buy similar color/weight silnylon? I guess I can ask Henry too.