Others Bug Me With This in the Backcountry!

Nate, I say I wasn't addicted to cigarettes because of this:
"impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving."

This was in the late seventies and early eighties, working graveyard shift as a hash-slinger at a Denny's restaurant. Everyone on the staff smoked. It was acceptable, it was encouraged, it was sociable and helped pass the time during quiet periods. I never had "impaired control, compulsive use or continued use despite harm, and craving." I chose to smoke. When I left the job, I chose to stop smoking as I was moving in different circles and it was no longer acceptable behavior.

BTW, the definition I use is from the American Society of Addiction Medicine consensus document, urging the DSM committee to clarify the terminology.

"We agree that the DSM Committees’ choice of terminology to date is problematic. The use of the term "dependence" as a euphemism for addiction originated as a well-intentioned attempt to counter negative effects of the social stigmatization of addicted patients. Unfortunately, it has resulted in creating significant confusion in discussions of management by clouding the important distinction between physical dependence and uncontrolled psychological craving (addiction). Examples of this confusion are replete in the literature."

>When you say "dependence can be overcome" means that you can kick a habit, you are conflating the two different meanings even you agreed on.

I was using simplified terminolgy for a field where the terminology is not simple. More people understand the idea behind 'kicking a habit' as involving a physical withdrawal than they understand the term 'dependence' IMHO, but we may agree to disagree.

No one applies the addiction-as-disease model that you are using to cigarette smoking because it is not applicable.

Ciigarette smoking is a social habit, that turns into physical dependence and addiction after prolonged occurrence. It is wholly different than the substances for which the model you are citing was created for–heroin, alcohol, cocaine, etc., etc., etc.

So no one can be addicted to cigarettes ever, under your definitions, because it is not a lifelong affliction for those who quit.

Here's what you are doing:

Some behavior models developed for alochol and heroin addiction say that addiction is a lifelong disorder. Since my cigarette habit isn't lifelong, it must be the case that I wasn't addicted! Voila!

I just wanted to clarify this because cigarettes are addictive, extremely so, and it's absolute nonsense to claim that you were physically dependent on them but not addicted (and then cite behavioral models developed for alcohol abuse). Anyway, that's my story, peace out.

seriously, i think the big x factor is "willpower," which is as biochemical in origin as anything else

if you are lucky enough for willpower alone to overcome addiction or dependence, you need to recognize how much the happenstance of beneficial biochemical status was at play

i think humans are often far too quick to blame and/or to pat themselves on the back, when much of truth is somewhere in between

i think we need to adore the dawn each day, because the final sunset is ever unknown, whatever our plans or wills might say

The main thing that bugs me in the backcountry is that family camping next to you (car-camping) that brought everything in their house including their boom box! They play their stupid oldies and country music all day long, starting as soon as quite hours end, and don't stop till 5 min. after quite hours begin. They make noise and yell all day, and maintain a blazing campfire until 3am.

That's what bugs me!

That’s why I like camping in remote areas best, because you don't run into this very often.

-Evan

"if you are lucky enough for willpower alone to overcome addiction or dependence, you need to recognize how much the happenstance of beneficial biochemical status was at play"

If not willpower-what? what is the alternative?
Seriously we are in the realm of philosophy now. Some people believe we are nothing more than the sum of our influences and predispositions, some believe that we are our philosophy.
Some will take the Buddha bet and say its the middle way.
But there are no study's to compare someone who has all the genes and bad influences with different Philosophy's and compare them to someone who dosent.

biochemistry

thought i'd made that part clear

when my biochemistry was strong and favorable, i patted myself on the back for being strong of will and looked down at "weaker" beings

after spending several years with sometimes screwed up biochemistry, i can tell you it is a huge factor

on a "good day" it's easy to be strong of will, on a bad day it's far from easy – string a few hundred bad days together and you'll begin to understand some of the "weak willed" people of the world

or,
When I want to indulge I blame biochemistry. Those that have choose differently and are healthier because of it are compationless lowbrows.

it's not about indulgence – there's nothing indulgent about misery or attempting to avoid pain

those who seek compassion in themselves find it – perhaps i've overindulged in compassion?

and using ones will to over come doesn't mean I look down on the "weak willed " of the world either

you may never be unable

or someday you may be

there was a time when there was nothing i couldn't overcome with my strong will

what i'm saying is that was a gift of luck or genetics or happenstance or whatever

i learned compassion the hard (and cheap) way: i had the ability for will to overcome obstacles stripped from me

humility was forced on me, against my will

what i'm trying to do here is explain that in a way that will allow someone else to avoid the "forced" part

what i'm saying is: i think you can will yourself to understand humility, to understand the luck of will

Humility dosnt always show in type on a forum.
Im not saying luck and environment has no bearing on ones choices. Im not saying Im stronger than anyone..
Im saying we ALL are strong and when, when we can chose it may not be easy but it is possible.
What ever your difficulties are Cary,
I hope the best, Hang in there, I dont look down on you
Please dont misunderstand my point of veiw.
Im sure your not weak willed, there are circumstances beyond our control.

This is the thread that just won't die.

i think what i'm saying extends beyond me

like most people, i'm pretty narcissistic at the core: i can't understand much that i haven't experienced myself

having been through what i've been through, particularly after being who i was before, has forced me to recognize that the people i thought were "weak" or "lazy" or whatever before may just have been less gifted or lucky than i was, since who i am now would appear weak and lazy to who i was before

i'm not saying some of them aren't "weak" or "lazy," just acknowledging that my judgement of them as such is pre-emptive of the truth of their situation – i'm forced to accept that some of them, at least, may merely be on the down side of an 8 ball or some such

Joe,
If we work together and give a big push do you think we can get this thread over to Chaff? It belongs in with the Carbon Flame War.

Cary,

I hear ya…commendable observation. This is the lesson that Christianity is, er, supposed to instill in people (at least in my church growing up)….do unto others…judge not lest ye be judged…blessed are the meek….somehow, though, we've ended up with a "god helps those who help themselves" ethic.

Empathy, compassion, and an understanding of the diversity of people's capabilities are all very valuable virtues.

LT, I was curious if you are or were a certified drug and alcohol professional and licensed with a recognized national organization or state agency in the particular state you reside.

.

>LT, I was curious if you are or were a certified drug and alcohol professional and licensed with a recognized national organization or state agency in the particular state you reside.

Scott

I am a research scientist collaborating with the National Addiction Centre, but my specialty is pharmacogenetics. I have been 'dependent' on cigarettes, but not addicted. I have been (and am sure it's for life) addicted to alcohol, but not dependent. The difference between the two 'diagnoses' are crystal clear when you've been there.

The dependence results in a withdrawal syndrome which subsides with continued abstinence (this is what happened with the cigarettes). But I suffer no withdrawal syndrome when I abstain from alcohol (through Brian's all-conquering will-power), but the craving never goes away. THAT'S what I mean. All the will-power in the world cannot make me stop the craving, and I just plain feel better when I drink. To me, the difference between the two conditions is like black and white, and YES, many people are addicted to cigarettes, even some who manage to stop. But when they stop, every day, every minute is a battle of will, and since the drug is legal, the immediate consequences of not abstaining are more of a motive to smoke. But I don't know of any addiction that makes people crave to throw their butts on the ground, or force their smoke in other people's faces. That's just bad manners.

So, it would be arrogant and wrong of me to state that 'because I overcame my cigarette 'addiction', anyone can through willpower'.

And yes, this should be moved to chaff!

Alright you guys win,
Those of you who want to quite smoking- forget about it.
Biochemistry, genetics, and environment have resigned you be an addict or have a habit or whatnot. Choosing to break the habit only makes you a less sophisticated simpleton who doesnt understand and looks down upon the struggles of others.
Great message guys.

Brian, do you still crave cigarettes? Do you think all the time about how nice it would be to light up, inhale? Do you really not understand the difference between abstaining from something you crave all the time, to kicking a 'bad habit'? Do you truly believe that good fortune has nothing to do with you being a happy, free, healthy and non-addicted person, and that it all comes down to willpower?

"Do you really not understand the difference between abstaining from something you crave all the time, to kicking a 'bad habit'?"

How do you manage to abstain without will power? please name this revolutionary drug that allows one to do this?

abstain:
: to refrain deliberately and often with an EFFORT of self-denial from an action or practice

I really have nothing more to add, I hope that those who want to quit smoking can find some inspiration in the fact that they do have the ability to overcome and dont have to resign them selves to a life of smoking.

i was a smoker, who used Copenhagen oral tobacco from time to time (no smoking zone? then chew…), over a 17 year period. I stopped smoking twice. On the third attempt, which was the day my wife went into labor with our first child over 2 years ago, i stuck with it and havent touched it since. I do think no matter what basis you have for defending a bad habit, there are too many excuse-makers who will do anything to continue to lie to themselves. If you want to quit, then quitting is easy. Just do it, and shut up about it.

according to allison, im not addicted to tobbacco, just have a fondness for it. ok then.