Use of tarps

I appreciate the helpful comments coming, but let me be clear about my previous post: I understand the benefits of a floorless shelter in the rain. I've used my GoLite Hex 3 with a bivy in the rain and appreciate the ability to just crawl in all wet, stow my raingear in a corner, and then prepare my polycro dry zone. That said, I think you can achieve a similar separation of spaces with the tarptents that have good awnings, and benefit from a bug-free zone.

But my question isn't about the merits of tarp vs tents in general; rather, why would a tarptent become miserable after a few days of rain, but that a tarp would not, if the problem has to do with the fabric saturating and then misting from blowing rainy wind. I just want to clarify if the issue is the misting with the fabric, or the fact that the floor also gets wet, making the living space a little less comfortable. It just seems to me that in these conditions the only relatively comfortable options are 1) a double wall tent, 2) a tarptent/tarp with bivy, or 3) bring a synthetic bag and no bivy like Ray Jardine and Ryan Jordan.

As to the bivy, my question relates to breathability in warm, buggy weather more than claustrophobia. I've relied on permethrin and long sleeve shirt/pants in the past, but I've been in mosquito swarms here in Oregron bad enough that some kind of enclosed shelter is necessary, and a bivy when it's 80 degrees outside doesn't sound very comfortable to me. In fast and light trips, I can just hike all day and camp high to solve this. But on a thru-hike, I imagine one doesn't always have this flexibility.

I suppose I already know the answer to the bivy question; going UL involves compromises in comfort, so in buggy conditions one must either plan on hiking all day (no long stops), or simply deal with being uncomfortably warm in the afternoon under a rain suit/windshirt or in a bivy. I can respect that.

It is true, there is so much variation in shelters and bivy sacks that generalizations always only serve a limited value. My sense is that some might find small shelters, like The One, challenging to inhabit in multi-day rain events because of the relatively small space and the possibility of saturating tent the tent body mentioned above- surrounded on close sides by wet fabric. I don't have experience with this shelter, only heard wonderful things about it, so I'll defer to people who have. It sounds like the hex 3 can be pitched in ways which confer a similar advantage as a tarp.

"Misting" is not something I have experienced, and I understand from other threads on BPL that some controversy exists about the phenomenon- water from outside coming in, condensation from inside being shaken off, etc. From the post above, it sounded like the issue was the tent fabric eventually become somewhat saturated through multiple pitching and stuffing events. I'm assuming that seams were not the issue, though seam sealing is usually an essential measure with single wall tents, as most are aware.

As for the question of relying on a bivy in warm, muggy weather for bug protection at night, I can certainly imagine there is an upper limit of comfort for a bivy in these circumstances which probably varies greatly by the individual and by climate- and this is where, as I understand it, bug nests, nets, etc. come into their own. I am usually in areas where, even in summer, nights cool down, so I can't speak with much experience there.

Prolonged, intense, multi-day heavy rain would probably test the limits of any shelter system in some way, and I've benefited from the many BPL articles that essentially advocate accepting rather than resisting at all costs being wet while hiking. Since I don't own synthetic bags, and am interested in extending the functionality of down as far as possible, I might consider bringing a vb liner with my setup if I anticipated intese, multi-day rain without opportunities for drying out the bag. That way, at a minimum, I had a method at my disposal to dry out the bag- and yes, many would find this a good reason to consider other shelters, and they are certainly right. There are some good recent threads on BPL about hiking in (I believe) the Scottish Highlands, with some interesting arguments for and against UL gear in these conditions, particularly tarp/bivy. Where I spend most of my time, multi-day intense rain is rare, but then again I would never want to not consider hiking in an area simply because of my shelter system, so I'm always eager to learn about this stuff. Although this might create another thread, it would be nice to hear from people who have experienced prolonged rain events and came away with some insight into the merits or limitations of different shelter options!

Hi Diane

> here's how I imagine the scenario.
Yes, well, imagination is a wonderful thing, but a reality check is useful.

> TENT:
> I'm hiking and it's raining. I get to a place to camp and set down my pack. I pull
> out my tent. Everything is getting rained on as I set it up. Now I have to figure out
> how to get inside with my wet clothing and wet gear without getting the inside
> puddled with water. Impossible.
Fortunately, this is imagination. Reality is very different – at least with a good tent. A GOOD tent has a vestibule which is clear of the groundsheet so you can get under cover, strip off, wipe down the groundsheet (if wet from the previous night) and get onto it. We do this all the time.

Granted, there are many crap tent designs which are really only suitable for fine, dry, calm weather. Well, other BPL members can help you distinguish between good and bad tents. And when the wind and rain are howling around you just might find that a tent (or a good tarp-tent) has some superior qualities – like shelter and comfort.

Cheers

Diane,

With some practice, I think this is a realistic method for setting up a tarp in the rain. Speaking from my own embarassed fumbling, I can say that a little practice setting up the tarp goes a long way- after said fumbling, I found an open grass field on a nice sunny day and got to know my tarp. I also store all my insulating down in double-lined sacs for some extra protection, which allows me to open my pack in rain without worrying about directly wetting my SB- though I guess this precaution comes in handy regardless of what shelter you have!

While I think the practical benefits of a bivy have been pretty well covered, only you can determine your comfort level in a bivy in different conditions. Before you do so, I wouldn't write off using a bivy as bug protection, particularly if the alternative is to carry more weight. Bivies really can be quite comfortable, and as noted above, well-made bivies will have loops to increase internal space, lift mesh off face, etc. However, some just don't like how bivies feel. I have found that when I do close the bug net on my bivy, it is only for the early night hours. Eventually they calm down as it cools and I open everything up.

This has been an interesting thread, and shows how broad the range of user experience and preference are!

As Roger said, a properly designed tent will have a protected entrance (or two!) to allow you to remove wet clothing without saturating the inside of your tent. It is for this reason that you will find I always add a rainporch to any tarptent I use (I haven't yet developed Roger's knack with MYOG tents). Lack of decent vestibule is a design weakness of most tarptents. Of course, this adds weight, but it comes down to comfort when you are looking at many days of rain in a row.

I am another one of those people who can't fathom using a bivy bag for insect protection. They are bad enough when you have to bunker down in them to escape the rain. If it's not raining I would be absolutely miserable. Hot and claustrophic for me.

There are also many times when I would have been miserable without a bathtub floor. Depends on your climate and terrain as much as personal preference.

So I can't imagine taking a tarp without a bivy bag, or a bivy bag without a tarp, or either of the above without a good large insect free area.

I agree, some good thoughts all around, and much food for thought. A great lesson in thinking about shelter options in relation to various criteria- number of hikers, hiking styles, climate conditions, considerations of comfort, margins of safety, MYOG talent, etc.

Now if only I can figure out how to take advantage of a boiling bugless bivy for cooking purposes- "Bivy Stew"?

Diane:
One other thing re: using a tarp with a bivy is that you can reduce the size of your tarp. This will save you quite a bit of weight, while continuing to offer protection from rain because of the use of the bivy preventing your bag from getting wet via rain splash or misting. You can also get a bivy that has a top that is a combination of both WP/B and bug netting. With this type of bivy and a smaller tarp, such as a 5×7, for example, will greatly reduce your overall shelter weight.
Jim

I like to wake up and see what is around me, which is something I don't get from tents, tarptents, and many other shelters.

Some people will argure that a well placed and pitched tarp will protect you from the elements, and you don't need a bivy. Don't many of the sleeping bags have water resistance shell materials? Many long distance hikers use small (~8×5) tarps without a bivy (e.g., Flyin Brian, Francis Tapon, Jardine, etc.).

Also, as someone else mentioned, a tarp is great with dogs.

The single wall shelters seem great too, but there are some advantages of each.

Hi John,

I'll try to answer your question as best I can. First of all, I found the One to be a fine shelter over all and am quite pleased with it.

To my way of thinking, the chief advantage of using a tarp and separate ground sheet was that due to a combination of less moisture build-up and greater ventilation, there seemed to be less loft degradation in my down sleeping bag than when using a tarp-tent, in rainy conditions.

To elaborate:

Under the cover of the tarp, I found it possible to pack and fold the ground cloth in such a way that the dry side stays (mostly) dry.

Then the ground cloth can be unfolded the next rainy night again under the cover of the tarp, with the dry side mostly maintained. (Any residual moisture can be handled with a bandanna and depending on conditions, under the tarp, body heat and soil drainage seem to work together to dry out the groundsheet to a limited extent the following morning.) Wet gear goes off to the side and does not impede ventilation.

The tarp is stored separately from the tarp. The tarp is also folded or rolled to protect the dry underside as much as possible, then packed into a different pocket than the ground sheet. The moisture on the tarp does not make its way to the groundsheet. Any moisture that did makes its way to the underside of the tarp did not seem to be a problem when the tarp was pitched.

I mostly pitched the tarp as an A-frame and there was considerably more ventilation beneath the tarp than inside the tarp-tent and considerably less condensation.

In contrast:

This contrasts to packing the One which has an integrated floor. I haven't found a good way to fold, roll, or store the wet tent such that the wet fly doesn't come into contact with the previously dry floor during storage. Water on the wet outer fly then seems to wick its way inwards to cover the inside walls and floor of the tent while it is packed away during the day.

Then, when set up the next night, I would enter a tent now damp/wet on the inside (floor and walls) from the moisture that had wicked its way into the tent. This combined with the moisture from my wet raingear and shoes that were placed in the vestibule (with the ventilation perhaps further decreased by the wet gear partly blocking the vestibule) and the reduced ventilation that the tarp-tent naturally has (in comparison to the tarp) seemed to cause greater condensation on the interior tent walls. Enough condensation formed to drip down naturally or be knocked off by wind and required me to wring out my bandanna a couple of times whenever I attempted to mop off the tent walls (whereupon water would soon again re-condense). The seams were sealed.

Caveat:

This is an awfully long post on a subject which is blissfully rare along the PCT. I think the One is a great shelter for the conditions encountered by most hikers along the PCT during the typical thru-hiking season.

John: As another suggestion for a shelter system which might be comfortable to live in during extended periods of rainy weather – and I suggest this from a purely theoretical basis – what about a tipi or pyramid used in conjunction along with a packable stove (e.g. one made by Ti Goat or Kifaru)? Particularly for the CDT and the weight split among the group's members?

Diane: What an interesting thread you've started!

(note: I have no interest in hiking the CDT.)

I agree with Thomas, it is nice to see what's around you. Me, I'm a noseybody. When I wake up to something in the middle of the night, I want to know what it is, which is very hard to do in a castle of nylon.

Also, it SUCKS when you wake up the whole camp with the noisy zipper of a tent.

The tarp is WAY more airy and comfortable. You can sit up in it and take your shoes off, cook under it, which is impossible with a tent without a good vestibule.

If you were expecting some foul weather, a tarp-bivy combo is the lightest way to go.

-Evan

>If you were expecting some foul weather, a tarp-bivy combo is the lightest way to go.

If you are going solo (and don't have to deal with biting midges)!

As for view and cooking, that's what a good rain porch is for ;)

I'm glad people are finding helpful info in my topic.

By the way, the clautrophobic image was of a man with the bug netting of his bivy stretched over his nose. I would prefer the bug net part of any bivy to be somehow lifted well over my face so as to not make me feel like a sausage.

Anyway, back the the philosophy of my question. One thing I liked about my GG tent was how spacious inside it was. I get inside and I'm safe. The color of the fabric isn't gloomy. It's a great tent.

But, I can't see the trees through the fabric. Now I've got the A16 bug bivy. Now I'll have a choice that won't be made by the bugs. And with the tarp, I have another choice for rain. Maybe someday I'll get to test it. I plan to go on a trip in February and I'm bringing the tarp and The One. It won't rain, but we'll probably stay in dewy places, so it'll be a good test of the tarp with out a bivy for now.

Anyway, something about zipping myself into a plastic-coated bag under a tarp doesn't quite appeal to me as much as the roominess of my tent or the minimalism of the bug bivy. I guess I just have to try a bivy to know whether or not it feels like too many layers of plastic between me and the air. Maybe I will have to get one. I wish I had a job!

Nicholas,

Thank you for clarifying; I can see how a tarptent could become damper now. Don't underestimate OR and WA's ability to create continuous days of rain, especially around the time thru-hikers arrive! Central Oregon is one of these places where you will want your full shelter kit, since you can be rained on for days or eaten alive by giant mosquitos (or both!).

Those pyramid tent stoves sure do look tempting, don't they! If only I could rig a Bushbuddy with a chimney…

Diane,

I thought I would cross-post a discussion about Mountain Laurel Designs. Ron Bell has announced he will be coming out with more bug nests for some of his shelters, in particular the DuoMid. This should be big enough to feel tarp-like, but will also be very storm worthy. It won't match the weight of The One, though it should still be quite light and much more roomy. Combine this with a synthetic bag and you'll never need a bivy.

Lastly, in response to your first post re: why bring a tarp if it won't rain: have you considered the Gatewood Cape? I was too big for the Serenity NetTent, but I really liked that the tarp also served as my raingear. It provided the justification for bringing a tarp, so that I only needed one piece of lightweight gear in the unlikely event of precipitation (during those types of hikes).

>I really liked that the tarp also served as my raingear.

Getting slightly off-topic here, but how do you set up your your GateWood cape in the rain without getting wet?? I just had to ask as it's always puzzled me!

Allison,

That's why I switched to a Rainbow after reading your reviews! =) BPL published an article on this a few years ago that basically amounted to "you have to get good at setting up your shelter really, really fast, and use a windshirt that is more water resistant but less breathable."

Actually, my solution was to bring a DriDucks jacket instead of a windshirt. I figured the 6oz weight wasn't much more than a windshirt and trashbag (for setting up the cape in), and the fact that the fabric is not very durable didn't matter since the Gatewood served as primary raingear.

But I was referring specifically to trips like Diane was describing, where there is a good high pressure system in place and zero percent change of rain (I remember those back when I lived in Southern California). On trips like that, when one might be tempted to leave one's raingear and tarp out of the pack at the trailhead, the Gatewood was the perfect backup insurance. I also liked knowing that setting up the Gatewood would keep me warmer at night if I needed the extra warmth, thereby serving triple duty.

But it's all relative of course; for me the Gatewood was my no-chance-of-rain summer backup, but for many here the Gatewood is their foul-weather choice instead of their cuben tarps.

Thanks for the info John. Nice thread.

8oz is darn cheap insurance.
While hiking in the Olympics, even a perfectly clear day, and night, brought rain from condensation forming on the tree's leaves for most of the night.

Since I was sleeping in a down bag, I was glad I pitched!

A lot of people have expressed doubts about using a bivy in buggy and or hot conditions. I am wondering what kind of bivy they are referring to?
It sounds like bugs and heat would be a problem IF you were using a waterproof bivy without bug netting which is usually not only not-ultra light but complete overkill. Most people are using water resistant highly breathable bivys. If its hot -a single layer of momentum may be all you need to sleep through the night (meaning no bag). I like bivys with a net top, this gives you total protection from bugs and a lot of ventilation when needed. And why would you feel claustrophobic by adding a thin layer around your sleeping bag? I feel snug and warm in my bivys knowing I have an extra layer to combat rain, wind,and bugs not to mention the added warmth and Im a pretty claustrophobic person-but dont feel that way in a bivy. Plus with a bivy if the weather is good that night you can just throw it on the ground and shove your bag inside -and WHA-LA your done making camp. If it starts raining grab your tarp and set it up -no problem.
Its plenty hot and muggy in a New England summer and we have a lot o' mosquitoes- thats bivy time!

So I purchased a bivy with a breathable, water-resistant top and waterproof bottom, no bug netting. I have an A16 bug net bivy. I like having one of those so I can take a nap in the afternoon.

Once someone mentioned that a bivy can add warmth when it's cold I was sold. Something to help keep the microbreezes out of my quilt. Yay! And I remember some hot nights in July in Nor Cal on the PCT when my sleeping bag was mostly next to me. Those would be the same nights I would sleep in only a sheet at home. So I can see the value of a bivy now.

Can't wait to try out the system.