Mapping Software & TOPO!

I've had my eyes on that program for a while, but what I want to know is what the added features are on the software package. Sure, it has topo maps, but what about the gps compatibility or the ability to create elevation profiles for trails? Actually, what I want to know mostly is if there's some way to put other peoples' data on the maps. USGS topos usually have trails (say the AT) that are way outdated and lack several relocations. Is there any way on TOPO to find more up-to-date trail locations and such?

If any of those things work, maybe that's the justification for the extra cost. I'd love to hear more about the program from somebody who has used it, though.

El Bumparoo.

You might want to take a look at what I posted in "The G Spot" forum today on this subject. There are two basic choices, and some folks are not too happy with the way NG is handling it (if you doubt, just read the forums over at NG!)

The first thing is to consider whether you want NG TOPO! Explorer (or Explorer Deluxe), or whether you want NG TOPO! State edition for your state. There are some pro's and cons (aren't there always?)

I recently bought TOPO! California. When I went to their web site and discovered the controversy, I made it a point to get a bit better educated abut such things as differences between the products and plans. I was able to talk to a very helpful guy in their tech support.

FWIW: I was at REI last night and, as a private research project, asked the clerk about the differences between Explorer and the State series. He sounded knowledgeable, but his information was wrong in some important ways. I am not surprised — it is hard to get the full picture.

OK — a few facts:

* NG is promoting TOPO! Explorer (TEX) as their product of the future. They want to get people using existing software migrated over to it. Some salient points:

* Many who have used it feel it is not yet ready for prime time. They believe it is alpha / beta level software. The State series, on the other hand, has been out since some time in the 1990's and does what it does pretty well. I agree with those who think TEX is alpha software. I downloaded a copy of the most current TOPO! Explorer (free download) and tried it out. Let's just say that I noted shortcomings of several kinds.

* They have different types of interfaces. TEX has a more browser-type interface (even the version running on your machine). The older products have an interface that is more of a traditional PC GUI interface. IMHO, and in my very limited experience, they have a ways to go on usability for TEX. I found it both slow and annoying.

* As you have discovered, you have paid for 25 quadrangles (you can download the software for free). Beyond that, you will need to pay $1 for each additional quadrangle you want. I believe it is surprising how fast you'll run through the 25. The State series (or a regional equivalent) contains all of the quadrangles for that area. How many quadrangles that is obviously varies greatly, but it is apt to be **way** more than 25. (I heard California has 1700 quadrangles.)

* There are (or will be) some features in TEX that NG has no plans to back port into State. One of the most obvious is support for their new trails database (not a big deal yet, but could become one if it takes off.) I am unclear about State support for the aerial photography and hybrid views. State users will be able to get new maps as available — just not those two layers unless they pay $1 per quadrangle where they care. TEX users clearly get those two layers with the quadrangles they download.

* On the other hand, there are features of the old software that NG has no plans to bring forward into TEX. I do not know just what they are, but it is enough that the tech I spoke to clearly felt that not everyone would be willing/able to migrate. I do not know which of the stuff I noted missing when I tried it is permanent, and which is because the software is still (IMHO) alpha level.

=====

> I purchased the NatGeo TOPO! Explorer Deluxe after
> hearing so much about it on BPL.

Are you sure they were talking about TEX, or did they just say "TOPO!", in wich case they may have meant the older products? Given that TEX has only been available since about last spring, I expect they were talking about the older software, such as the State series.

> With that said, what's the point in buying mapping
> software just to spend more money on the very thing the
> software was supposed to provide?

You are not paying for the software — you can download that for free (and I did). In TEX, you are just paying up front for the 25 quadrangles. In TEX Deluxe, you are also paying for the base maps for the country. You won't have to do any further downloading of those.

> Are there better options?

You might want to seriously consider the appropriate state or regional version of the traditional product (instead of TEX). You can find those for under $70 on line, and the full set of maps comes with the product (CDROM's that you can load onto your hard disk if you like).

===

> I've had my eyes on that program for a while, but what I
> want to know is what the added features are on the
> software package. Sure, it has topo maps, but what about
> the gps compatibility

They claim GPS compatibility. I recently went to an REI evening talk on that very subject, by an NG salesman. (His talk was based on State, but I presume TEX has at least plans for the same.) I do not have a GPS, but what he went over sure sounded good to me. You can do things like set different datums, use your choice of lat/long or UTM, etc. They can download maps on to only the Magellan Triton series. You can download waypoints and upload tracks to/from quite a variety of GPS's, including the Garmins. You should check that whatever GPS you have is supported.

> or the ability to create elevation profiles for trails?

Creating an elevation profile for the track you draw is a one-click operation — works well. (State, but I presume also TEX.) You can choose just part of the profile. You can relate the profile back to the map. You get the obvious figures, such as total length over the round, amount of ascent and amount of descent.

> Actually, what I want to know mostly is if there's some
> way to put other peoples' data on the maps. USGS topos
> usually have trails (say the AT) that are way outdated
> and lack several relocations. Is there any way on TOPO to
> find more up-to-date trail locations and such?

That is a touchy point. The basic answer is yes, but it gets tangled up in TEX vs State. State saves its data as .tpo files. You can merge another .tpo file into your map, and save the result. TEX can also merge in a .tpo file. For example I recently merged someone else's GPS-based trails data for Henry Coe State Park into my maps.

The problem is that TEX can *create* only a .trp file (not a .tpo file) and State cannot read a .trp file. So any data exchange between the two products is one way: State –> TEX (or, of course State <–> State). NG has upset some people by discontinuing support for sharing .tpo files on their web site, even though TEX still has some problems.

Furthermore, doing it by mergers has its own issues — the first merge goes well, but if the person revises their data and you need to do a re-merge there is no support. It is up to you to clean away the old data before merging the new data. I just turned in a a posting on their TOPO4 forum about this very subject, requesting that they make it work a lot better. (I think that *including* other .tpo's, not *merging* them, would work far better.)

> If any of those things work, maybe that's the
> justification for the extra cost. I'd love to hear more
> about the program from somebody who has used it, though.

I am a comparative newbie to TOPO! California, but I have made an effort to understand what is going on. I'll be glad to answer anything I can. I have no GPS, though, so cannot help much with that kind of question.

— Bob

Trial this:

http://www.topofusion.com

TopoFusion is GPS Mapping software for Windows. It downloads maps (Topo, Aerial Photo and Satellite) automatically from several public map servers [full US coverage]

One flat price gets you:

* Efficient, versatile map display engine. TopoFusion runs the way a modern mapping application should–fast and smooth.
* Fusion Combo Maps: Blend topo, aerial, TIGER road and color aerial maps together to form amazing new maps.
* Power Analysis: Exclusive features to sync PowerTap wattage data with GPS tracks. Fully supports the new Edge 705 including mapping and profiling power.
* PhotoFusion: Geo-reference digital photos using EXIF timestamps. Places photos along GPS tracks and produces HTML pages with clickable image maps.
* Multi-track playback: Visualize multiple trips recorded by GPS simultaneously.
* Networks: Combine multiple GPS tracklogs into a GPS network using our exclusive algorithm. No other software can merge and simplify large collections of data.
* Splining/Simplifying GPS data: Interpolate GPS data or decrease the number of points in a track log.
* User Maps: 3-point calibration of any imported image, with transparency.

Have you checked the product reviews at amazon.com? Sometimes they are helpful.

TOPO! Explorer Deluxe: 1 2*, 4 1* reviews
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B00168A672/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

TOPO! State series: 3* overall, 29 reviews from 1* to 5*

Wow. Thanks for the very informative response, Bob. I think I'll just wait and see when Explorer gets past the beta phase. Really, the part I'm most interested in at the moment sounds like the database of trails that they have. But I'm not sure I like the idea of spending hundreds of dollars for all of the quadrangles in a single state.

Ryan,

You are most welcome. I was afraid I might have gotten carried away and dumped too much.

A further thought, in case it matters:

You can get the state version now, including all of the state quadrangles. The TEX software is a free download from their site, so you can get that also and update it as it improves. Because you have the state version, you will be entitled to all of the state quadrangles without further payment — just not the new aerial photo and hybrid layers. You will have to pay for any of those you want (no way I know of to avoid that).

You can find the State version on line for under $70 (plus shipping). Right now — I think I recall until Jan 29 — you can get a second product of equal or lower value for free. That might work well for you — I'm not sure where you live, but some two of Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont might be work well for you.

— Bob

Accuterra's website offers a similar function of NG Tex, in that you can download quads for $1 each. Unfortunately it doesn't yet support Apple's Safari browser, so I haven't tried it out. Some advantages I see are web-based (access from anywhere), cheaper for occasional backpacking, and Accuterra claims more updated trail info. It would also be the same map data as any GPS that uses Accuterra maps (Magellan, Lowrance). But I don't know if you can create routes and transfer them to your GPS; I believe it's a print-only feature. Does anyone know more about the Accuterra maps? They sound promising, but I haven't found desktop software to create waypoints with Accuterra maps. Seems like there should be, since you can do this on the GPS units that use Accuterra maps.

Accuterra is advertising itself as the most detailed and current topographic mapping available. I'd like to see a BPL review comparing NG TOPO! and Accuterra maps, particularly in places where BPL staff have already hiked (to verify the map detail).

What I DON"T think anyone should be doing is purchasing desktop mapping software and separate GPS mapping software. Garmin is a great example, where their new US Topo 24K maps come pre-installed on a MicdoSD card that cannot be transferred to desktop software. I think the future is in companies that can transfer the desktop maps onto the GPS devices (like Magellan can do with NG TOPO! Maps.

I bought NG Topo! for New England and NY/NJ. Gotta say I like some of the features like the flyover but more as a gimmick it's kinda cool to look at once you draw a route. Not much practical use for trip planning. Elevation profiles and distance measuring are easy, just a click -AFTER you trace your route……and THAT'S where the problem seems to lie.

I was pretty disappointed with the trails already sketched on the topo. Like the AT for example. The section thru CT is an ancient route! It's way older than the current route, just as Ryan suggested most topos are. That makes it kinda useless unless I'm planning to bushwhack up some peaks. The whole point is that the software would be pretty current so I could simply trace a trail and generate profiles, distances, etc.

Trying to guess and freehand sketch where the AT goes through CT based on other maps would be highly inaccurate. Further what good is it?

If I want to go to the Adirondacks I want to use the software to generate maps of existing trails, not make my own bushhwack version and later purchase an updated map showing the actual trails. If their are topo maps that show current trails why aren't they updated on Topo! maps?

The more I checked CT topo! maps the more blue trails I find are not even shown. Again If I have to sketch them freehand, guessing or trying to trace them in from my own maps what's the point? Might as well just buy my own maps. (Granted the profiles would be nice. And IF somebody has thoroughly mapped a blue trail I could use waypoints to generate my map vs. freehand tracing, but still kinda lame. )

just my two cents

FedEx

Gary,

Your comments are valid out here, too (California). Even if they get in league with guidebook publishers, they still will not get the local, county, and state parks that make up most of the local hiking around here.

That's why I have been after them to upgrade the ability to edit their maps, adding things that look pretty much indistinguishable from the originals. The idea is that some of us from the area could walk trails with GPS recording, and transfer that to the maps. Sure, it is a pain … but if the load is shared it would not be too bad. And, realistically, it is the only way I see to get a lot of the trails on the maps accurately.

Once it is done, then the product would be a lot more useful to anyone wanting to hike in the area that did this. I would hope we all would share, so we could even have good out-of-area maps.

What I am running into is that they do not seem to see that there is a market for customers wanting to be able to upgrade the maps themselves. It would help if anyone who sees the sense in what I am saying please contact NG and explain to them that their products (especially the State series) really need to have the ability to effectively upgrade the base map. (Probably not modify it directly; rather, provide an overlay for it that would achieve the same purpose.) As with most businesses, there is no hope unless they see that there is a customer demand.

— MV

I think it's important to remember that TOPO! is not really a vehicle for NatGeos' cartographic department to flaunt their stuff, but is primarily a tool to make the USGS 1:24000 map data a bit more handy to look at and carry in the field. Barring basic landform depictions, the USGS data is notorious for being outdated, but even if it were all updated tomorrow any trails database would be out of date again by this summer. This is where the end user comes in, adding custom trail overlays from personal or shared .tpo files, gpx tracks, kml files, satellite/aerial photo hand traces, and whatever other resources happen to be available. For a major long distance trail like the AT, this data is readily available for public consumption. For other trails, you may have to collect this data yourself. But I wouldn't want someone else's trail data set usurping the USGS base map data by default. That would be like Google Earth forcing the Community overlays on its users – an ad hoc mess.

You can find kml's of the AT, broken by section:

* edit by sharalds at request of original URL owner *

http://www.guymott.com/atgps.html

* end edit *

To convert to .tpo, extract the waypoint data, spreadsheet format it as necessary, save as a CSV file, then import into TOPO! as a route and save it.

Absolutely. My point exactly.

I'd like to be able to apply a map update, mine or anyone else's to the base map on the fly. I don't want to change the base map itself, but I do want that effect by applying the set of changes I specify. I's also like to control the look, including the possibility of looking like the original map.

What NG has not yet grasped in their product is that there are two classes of things I want to do (not just one). Yes, I want to plan trips — that they already understand. But I also want to supplement the base map — either individually or by sharing with others. That sort of thing is not a trip plan, should not be logically confused with one, and should not have to look like one.

— MV

Appearances aside, TOPO! already has this covered, or am I not following?

You're saying you want the ability to add overlays that *look like* the USGS base maps, rather than red and blue lines, circles, arrows, and the like? I'd imagine there would be copyright considerations, and then how would you differentiate the base map from the overlay?

Edit: The USGS base maps TOPO! uses are just scans, of course, with no dynamic elements.

One of the things Accuterra advertises is its use of multiple layers of data. They have an elevation data layer, a topo layer, a land use layer, a hydrography layer and most important for this discussion, a roads and trails layer. They claim this data comes from "multiple government agencies and local sources." This is why they claim to have the most detailed and current maps available.

In theory this makes real sense to me; as the company can keep the relatively static elevation and topo layers unchanged and just update the raods, trails, and hydrology layers separately.

But beyond that I know very little of the software. Perhaps I should just take the plunge and purchase a few topos from Accuterra and NG Tex and compare them.

John, (or anyone using Accuterra) – Are the "physiographic" layers (let's call them) based directly on the USGS 1:24000 data? I wouldn't use anything else for navigational purposes, regardless of how accurate the trail layers may be. This is one of the major caveats of DeLorme's TopoUSA, in spite of its full US coverage at an attractive price. The necessary detail just isn't there.

Brett,

That's precisely what I'm wondering! I haven't found any information on map resolution or data source.

I didn't realize DeLorme doesn't use USGS data. Sounds like it's time for another mapping software shootout!

Bret,

I have several things in mind.

Partly it is, as you said, cosmetic. I do want the map corrections I add to look different from trips I plan. I want them to be able to be as subtle as the original map. Do not underestimate the cosmetic — it is needed to keep the map readable if you need to add very much — and around here there is a LOT that needs adding / changing.

I would be surprised if copyright is an issue — I would think the USGS symbols are already covered by whatever agreements NG already has, and users adding more symbols would be on their own — but as long as it is for non-commercial use (all your TOPO license authorizes anyway) I doubt there is any realistic problem.

Partly it is not cosmetic. For example: I want to eliminate things that are on the map, but no longer on the land. I want to be able to move things that are not located in the correct place, and extend/shorten things that are the wrong length on the map, etc. I want to be able to correct things between being a paved road, a dirt road, or a trail — that changes over time, and the USGS lags badly. One of the parks near here has multiple levels of dirt road, and multiple levels of trail on their own park map. I want to be able to include that level of detail in my TOPO updates — with good enough updates there would no longer be a need to carry the park's map in addition to the TOPO printout — not true today. I want to be able to supply names for things (such as roads and trails) that TOPO thinks have no name, but the park has named — and have them named on the map and the popup have the right information — not just overlay those things with something that looks like a trip plan. I want to be able to indicate the things I add with standard USGS symbols, not just the (mainly geometric) bulky symbols that TOPO currently allows. In some cases, I want to be able to create my own symbols (such as the park case above, or perhaps for good swimming holes), which TOPO does not allow.

And then there is the mechanical aspect. I think of it in terms of an "include" capability — I only use that word to avoid any preconceptions of what a "layer" or an "overlay" is. Whatever you call it, I want to be able to have an unlimited number of them. What you see would be the base map, modified by the included files, in order of inclusion — i.e. merged on the fly. The current product can only do a permanent merge, and that gets you into all sorts of problems once you find an update to what you merged. Without making that separation, you rapidly run into impracticality if you merge someone's changes, and then later on want to merge a revised version of that person's changes. As is, you have to figure out how to back out all of the original changes. It should be as simple as including the new data instead of the old data. This is a big deal to me because I just went through such a scenario and it was needlessly time-consuming.

I'm sure there is more, but I do not have my list of concerns handy just now. The basic thing is that each set of modifications to the base map (a) has to be separate from the original base map, (b) has to be self contained and individually replaceable, (c) visually, physically, and logically separate from trips I plan and (d) sharable with others so that we can collectively create a really nice map of an area of mutual interest.

As is today, most of the above cannot be done. You are limited to some canned symbols and route styles. You must merge everything you care about into a single base map. If you have quite a few trips planned over the same base map, when you get changes to some of the map-update data the best you can do is to re-do all of your merging (assuming you took the trouble to keep things separate and then hand merge them to begin with — which is asking an awful lot). If you have not kept things segregated to begin with, then you are up the proverbial creek without a paddle — your only recourse is to, for each map you care about, back out the old stuff by hand and then merge the new stuff. Imagine doing that for 50 or so trips — especially when with the "include" technology it would be automatic.

For example, here is a scenario I envision: there are a lot of city, open space, county, and state parks in this area (the greater San Francisco Bay Area). If the TOPO users in this area would cooperate (and that could be coordinated through a BPL forum or a National Geographic forum) a different person could take each area. A person would hike all of the trails for the area he is responsible for, gathering GPS track data. Then that person would make up an include file / overlay / layer for the area they explored. The net result would be a very nice resource for planning hikes in this area, without taking a prohibitive amount of work on anyone's part (larger parks could be broken up into areas for more than one person). Updates will be needed from time to time as something changes about the park or as errors are detected, so merging those changes has to be pretty trivial for this to be very practical.

I trust this answers the remark that TOPO already provides what I am asking for?

— MV

In reference to the capability of uploading/downloadin someones actual GPS track, there by getting the most up to date trail information, check out

http://www.gravitycollege.com

I recently discovered this site, therefore haven't realized all it's pros & cons, but I've been impressed so far.

It cerainly solves the ancient trail information on USGS maps and any software based on them.

I noticed a great deal of bandwidth being seeped from my website from persons being referred by this webpage. In just 12 hours, i've incurred an 80mb bandwidth increase from persons downloading the KML files I generated for my website's use.

Brett Tucker linked to my site's directory of KML files. While I am thrilled that you've found my website useful, I haven't "launched" my website (as I am still in the developing phase) and have not yet bought a bandwidth plan capable of taking even minute hits of 200mb a day for a month. In just a couple of days I will have to block all referrals from backpackinglight.com, which is something I don't want to do.

I ask that users instead go to http://www.guymott.com/atgps.html as this is where the (more current) files are now hosted. Mr. Parkay is allowing persons to download all GPS data from his server.

Brett, If at all possible, could you please edit your post accordingly?

Thank you and happy trails!
-Totem

Totem,

I took the liberty as a forum admin of editing Brett's post for you.

– Sam

I just took a quick look (at http://www.gravitycollege.com), and it does look very nice.

As a sort of litmus test, since it claims to have all state parks, I went to the largest one in this area, Henry Coe State Park. It does have the park, but it is very skimpy on trails — it fails to have a number of ones that even USGS has.

It looks like a great idea, and I wish them success. Evidently not there yet, though.

— MV

I was poking around the internet today and found out Garmin has announced it will make it's 24K topo maps available on DVD. Each region will be equivalent to two micoSD card regions. For example, one DVD will have all the 24K maps for CA, NV, OR, and WA for $130.

That actually looks pretty sweet to me; these are not scanned USGS, but rather their digital vector-based maps with 3D shaded relief. I presume, since they come on DVD, that this is desktop software, and that one could download these maps onto a compatible product. Since the map sizes are so small, presumably one could hold the entire 24K pacific coast states on one device. It would be nice to have a 'grab-and-go' basemap like this!

Has anyone tried out Garmin's 24K maps to see how they compare to the USGS quads?

One quick comment on the above conversation: NG Topo uses data from scanned paper maps, which is why they look a little fuzzy at full resolution. You are wanting to add custom layers on top of that, which I presume will be digital layers. Seems to be that there might be an inconsistency of format with the digital/analog duality. Plus you cannot remove any of the existing data, since it is part of the original scan. Using something like this new Garmin 24K topo series would presumably let you add and remove digital info from an all digital map. This is, of course, assuming the map detail is at least as good as NG Topo! detail (which is a big assumption, I know).

EDIT: I just found some samples of Garmin's 24K map series, and even though they have a lot of detail, they certainly don't compare to USGS in terms of aesthetics. Examples can be found here:

http://gpsinformation.info/penrod/24Kmaps/twofourmaps.html

Note that the website is slightly outdated, in that these maps will soon be available on DVD as well.

Robert, what you're wanting to do sounds to me like an ill fit for TOPO! in any likely future incarnation of that software, but would be more of a GIS-type application, working with a localized data set. As a stopgap, and this is admittedly a weak answer, you might try Google Sketch-up to render some of the more aesthetic symbology you're after, and PhotoShop it into bitmap image files generated in TOPO!

Sam, tell that guy to pay for more bandwidth already. Who's he coding for, his shelter mates? jk