Light warm winter sleeping bag to go with clothing system

How high-rated (high temperature that is) a bag can we go with? Any synthetic or down suggestions? I figure with the layers we have, particularly our puff belay layers top and bottom, we can go with a much higher-rated and lighter bag.

What is the lowest temperature you expect to encounter? And would you call yourself a warm sleeper, average, or cold?

Good questions – Sierra Nevada mid-Winter conditions – haven't experienced yet, but from reports, without factoring in higher elevations, generally: day 20-30F, night 5-15F.

My wife sleeps colder, at home using all our blankets when we go to sleep, while I use only the bottom sheet covering me and the blankets folded to the sides; I only feel cold/cooler much later at night/morning and then fold back the blankets over me.

I think your wife would do well with a WM Versalite, or similar. You might be able to get away with something lighter. Someone else can chip in here, as I haven't used the synthetic insulation that you're carrying, so not sure how much warmth it will add. Just make sure you get a bag that's large enough in diameter to accomodate you with all your clothes on, without causing compression. Best bet is to wear your clothes to a stroe that has the bags you are considering and 'try them on'.

For greatest versatility you could go for bags with mating zippers (they don't have to be identical bags, just identical zips). This allows you to have more of a cuddly quilt feel on warmer nights, with the option to hunker down on really cold nights.

If you really wanted to push the boundaries of UL, you could try to find a mating pair of (discontinued) WM POD 15s in place of the Versalite. This is what my partner and I use for winter trips. 750 grams each for the bags, with 4" loft just where you need it. We pair these with Stephenson's DAMs, so we are basically cocooned in down even though the bags don't have any on the bottom. Plenty of girth for layering too…

A sleep system alternative would be a Nunatak Duel Arc Alpinist. You can add additional fill to lower the 20* rating and the cost and weight my be better then investing in two UL winter bags. If one person requires more warmth they can opt to sleep in warmer layers. Just an option that may be worth looking at.

Sounds like a WM Versalite is right up your alley. It'll take you to 5*F (especially with a DM7 and Hot water bottle) and then you have your insulating clothing as backup.
You could go with a much lighter bag of you incorporate your clothing as you said…only problem is that if you get a cold snap, you have no backup…but if you have super reliable weather then maybe that isn't an issue.

Thom said "A sleep system alternative would be a Nunatak duel Arc Alpinist."

Eric said "We thought of a quilt, but felt that sleeping bags would be more versatile so that our bags could be used by family or friends as well, like a nephew or a niece."

Not only that, but in our personal exerience, we find a shared quilt is not very good in cold weather. The draft down the middle is hard to manage, and the lack of hood means briging a beefier/heavier bit of headwear. Having said that, a double quilt was used in the Wild Coast Jourey through winter in Alaska, but I think they used an enclosed outer quilt (sewn in bottom fabric, kinda like an insulated bivy bag) with a down quilt for the inner.

I have to agree with Allison a quilt just won't work well for our winter uses. Now isn't it possible, with a jacket as warm as the Patagonia DAS and pants as warm as the Micropuff pants, that we can go with a higher-temp rated bag? I just can't imagine that we need a 10F bag with clothing layers that warm (and that's not even including our R1 Hoody midlayer or baselayers)?

I just can't imagine that we need a 10F bag

Probably not, but I try to sell everyone on that bag just because it rocks…:)

I think you'll have to do some testing, unless someone here has a Das and Puff, and combines it with their sleep system. Where is Richard when you need him?

> Now isn't it possible, with a jacket as warm as the Patagonia DAS and pants as warm as the Micropuff pants, that we can go with a higher-temp rated bag?

Well, I always take the lowest likely temp to work with, which you put around 5F. At that temp your wife may ned a 10F bag, but you may not.

Note: I just looked up the Patagonia DAS, and see it is a monster of a heavy jacket. If it is really really warm, then you probably could both get away with a lighter bag. I just have no idea how much insulation the DAS provides.

The DAS jackets provide A LOT of warmth. It's like wearing a sleeping bag. We also size them as belay jackets, up one size, to be worn over our outer layers at rest stops and around camp.

The Puff Pants are very warm as well.

Our hooded Montbell Thermawrap Parkas are not as warm as the DAS but still quite warm, though much lighter in weight at about 13 ounces for mine.

I thought part of the benefit of taking the DAS Parka and Micropuff pants should be using them as part of our sleep system.

They both add a big margin of safety and comfort in winter.

> I have to agree with Allison a quilt just won't work well for our winter uses.

Strange – we have been using a quilt for the last two winters in the snow, with great success. But not just a single quilt – a good quilt over two very light summer sleeping bags, one each.

When its really cold, I don't think you could get a draft down between us :-)

Cheers

>a good quilt over two very light summer sleeping bags, one each.

Yes, that would definitely work too, similar to what Erin and Hig used on their Wild coast journey. But if you're carrying the DAS jackets and puff pants, maybe you could get waya with just a quilt, or two lighter bags. I have been warm enough in VERY cold conditions (no thermometer, so can't tell how cold) with just a WM POD 30, Skaha hoody and Monbell UL pants. The trick is finding a light bag that is sized wide enough to wear thick insulation inside it. Maybe one of the MontBell Super Stretch bags??

> The trick is finding a light bag that is sized wide enough to wear thick insulation inside it.
We use the light summer bags as quilts as well, under the big winter quilt. That way we have no problems with fitting in.
Yes, all our quilts have foot boxes to keep them under control, and the winter footbox extends up quite a distance.

Cheers

Most of my experience is on the East side of the Sierra- I grew up in the Owens Valley. Up around the high passes and basins typical wintertime overnight lows are about 15F, frequently dropping to 5F and occasionally dropping to -10F. Bridgeport has seen -30F. Usually the very cold weather is also quite calm and clear. Snowy, windy blizzards are usually above 10F.

I suggest planning so that you're comfortable sleeping to +5F, but able to survive much colder.

Bottom insulation is critical. I think the best system combines a failure-proof closed cell pad (Ridge Rest, EVA, or just about any good 3/8" pad) with a torso-length inflatable insulated pad. When you have an inflatable pad adjusted for comfort your pressure points are barely hovering off the ground, so they tend to get cold. A closed cell pad takes care of that and also works if your inflatable pad fails.

Roger, I don't doubt you – the summer bag + quilt sounds like a highly versatile option, but that's not entirely a quilt option. With just a quilt, the way we sleep, we'd be sucking in drafts all night.

My wife and I are both sprawlers, and somehow my wife at 5 ft 6 130 lbs seems to "conquer" even more turf + blanket than me at 6 ft 185 lbs! What's worse is that she's the heavier sleeper, so she tends to easily hold the turf she's taken.

EJ, what kind of shelter will you be using? A fully double skinned tent will be a lot warmer inside than a single skin, or double skin with mesh inner, or tarp.

Now that I remember back, that "really cold" night I also had a bivy bag. They make a good difference to as to how low you can push your system. A souble skinned tent + bivy + DAS jacket and micropuff pants should allow you to go pretty light in the bag department.

James, that's a great point. We are considering the Exped Downmat 7 or 9, which I've heard are plenty warm. I was thinking of going with the 7 + a 3/4 in. thick closed cell pad for extra warmth plus some backup in the event of a puncture. Not sure which closed cell to use yet.

In summer I don't mind using a torso-length pad and putting my pack under my feet, but being a 6 ft tall side sleeper I was thinking of going with a 70 in. Downmatt and a torso-lenth closed cell pad. We save quite a bit of weight in other areas so I don't mind carrying a little heavier winter pad setup for the comfort and warmth.

For 3 season use I'm looking forward to the Thermarest Neos at 14 oz.

Which specific bag + quilts + sleeping pads do you all use in winter?

Do any of you sleep with your warmest puff insulation layers to reduce the needed insulation/weight in your bag? Try to imagine sleeping in a Patagonia DAS or similar warm belay jacket + Micropuff or similar BMW pants – they are VERY WARM.

Maybe Richard N will chime in. If your minimum temp is 5F, I can't imagine you'd have a problem with a 30F bag wearing those puff pieces.

Also, for a cold emergency, we each carry one of those super light 3 oz heat reflective blankets.

> Also, for a cold emergency, we each carry one of those super light 3 oz heat reflective blankets.

Unfortunately, they are pretty useless as warmth layers. You would be better off binning them. marketing gimmick mainly.

Cheers

I feel silly for asking this, but what does the term "belay jacket" mean. I know what a belay is, but I'm not sure how that relates to jackets…?

Hi Roger, I have great respect for your experience, and agree that the blankets are not useful as a practical layer day to day, however:

a) we kept a totally unprepared hiker from hypothermia by wrapping her with one of those "useless" blankets and

b) a few years ago we wound up using ours in a hut to hut trip after we ran right smack into an angry mother black bear + cubs at about 50 ft just after nightfall coming down from Mt Lafayette in the Presidential Range in New Hampshire – this is one I should share in the appropriate forum because there are lessons to be learned, but my wife lost her pack (more like liberated it without thinking while zooming back up the mountain) and we had to spend 3 hours in 40F (and getting rapidly colder) in a cold 5 ft deep hole in the ground as a storm was coming in. The blanket kept us warm and sheltered, especially since my wife didn't have her pack with her extra layer and I gave her mine. This was before we had a light puff insulation jacket like the Thermawrap Parka, but even if we had it, my wife's jacket would have been left in her pack. We got enough adrenalin from that encounter for days.

We each carry one of those blankets to help another hiker or as a backup if one of us loses a pack. I think they weigh 2-3 oz each.

Allison, a belay jacket usually refers to a synthetic puff insulation jacket worn by a climber belaying a fellow climber, and thus standing motionless (and colder). It's usually sized up a size to go over an outer shell while belaying, or during a rest stop. That's how we wear ours – it's sized to go over shell/midlayer/baselayer.

Thanks for the explanation EJ, Just looking at the DAS, I would have thought it would be awefully long in the front for belaying. Wouldn't the hem get in the way of the belay device?

Anyway, I suspect what Roger meant was that the reflective blankets are not really any MORE insulating than an equivalent piece of plain plastic like a garbage bag or piece of cuben. However, to the extent that they are usually very cheap and folded into a compact size (something you can't do with cuben for instance), they are handy for emergency use, like a plastic groundsheet really.

Ooops. Sorry for using the wrong name EJ. Corrected for the sake of posterity.

That's probably what he meant, and I'd agree.

"Belay" jackets are also used to keep warm when in camp or at a rest stop. It's just another name for puff insulation jackets to keep you warm when not moving around and generating enough heat. The jackets, because they are cut to go over layers and have zippers on both ends, let you adjust as needed.

BTW, I'm EJ, not Eric, but Eric is a nice name too : )