MSR Carbon Reflex 1

[Matthew Perry]

All that has to be done to avoid copy write laws is change one small thing on a design and it's essentially a "new" or different design. Move a stake placement, make it single instead of double wall, change the pole sleeve just a little etc, etc….just look at the Warbonnet Blackbird hammock. Brandon essentially made a Hennessy Hammock Asym and added a foot box to it…now it's a different model.Personally, i would find it flattering if someone took A DESIGN OF MINE and improved upon it. But then again, i don't stand to lose money on being ripped off, either.

[Greg Mihalik]

"Of course they ripped each other off!"

Deep breath…. slowly turn….and walk away…

[Franco Darioli]

Matthew
I think that you are missing the point.
Henry objected to the use of his "freestanding" trekking pole set up, not the general shape of the CR1.
A member here raised that point, not Henry.
As a matter of fact I was the one that first pointed out here, at BPL, that the freestanding bit was unique to TT when MSR posted the original product page.
And it is entirely possible that whoever did that at MSR had never seen a Rainbow.
In fact the owner of another company that also designs tents told me that he had done that with one of his tents (also a cross hoop pole like the Rainbow…) but never published that.
As already pointed out in another thread, when someone posted a picture (or just a reference/link to) the Phreehanger, I had never heard of Phoenix nor that tent before and searching for it on Google came across very little info but found a picture that indeed made the two appear very similar.
So I sent that to Henry who in the meantime, as outlined by him above, already had received the link from someone else.
Franco
9franco@tarptent. com now not the first couple of times we discussed this…)

[Matthew Perry]

Franco,
With all due respect, i believe it is YOU who are missing MY point. I was only trying to get across that there has not been a real original tent design in 40 or so years. All the tents now are copies to some extent of models that came before them. People may say that they did not know about tent design "X" or that they were unaware of a similar tent already in existence when they released their awesome, new and groundbreaking design, but i just don't buy it. This is what they do for a living. How could you NOT know? The people working at these companies are not stupid. Just look at yourself (Tarptent) and your encyclopedic knowledge of the tent industry. I work in the retail Grocery industry as a store manager and you had better believe that i religiously keep up with my competition. Not to do so is foolish and bad for business.

Yes, i believe that the MSR Carbon Reflex ripped off the Rainbow. MSR changed the design just enough not to get sued. I also think the Rainbow is a type of copy of the Pheonix tent. The Tarptent Sublight is also a copy of the 1970's North Face Dandelion, just as the Warbonnet Blackbird skirts around patents owned by Hennessy hammocks. The Sierra Designs Serious tents were inspired by the North face Slickrock tent. I could go on and on, but that's just the way the world works. It's an evolution of the designs, right or wrong. I am positive that Henry's tent is superior to the old Phoenix in all respects, just as the Blackbird is superior to the older Hennessy Hammocks. That's not the point. The point i was trying to make is that imitation is a form of flattery, from my perspective, and to deny the true sources of inspiration for these tent designs is akin to lying. If you can improve on gear, do it. We will all be better off for it, but don't tell me 1 plus 1 equals 4. That's just insulting and nobody's buying it.

[BlackHatGuy]

"People may say that they did not know about tent design "X" or that they were unaware of a similar tent already in existence when they released their awesome, new and groundbreaking design, but i just don't buy it."

Well, for one, I'm not sure calling Henry a liar is necessary. I'd prefer to believe him.

Your point also seems to assume that only one person in the world at any one time is thinking about a certain design. Inventors see things in every day life that give them eureka moments for something they'd been thinking about in a different context. Who knows, perhaps Henry saw a tree branch bending over to the ground, caught on a small log lying perpendicular to it, and thought, "Hey! That might work as a tent design with trekking poles!"

In other words, it's certainly not unusual for two people to be thinking of the same "invention" without knowing of the other. It happens all the time.

[EndoftheTrail]

"Well, for one, I'm not sure calling Henry a liar is necessary. I'd prefer to believe him."

+1.

[Sam Farrington]

"In other words, it's certainly not unusual for two people to be thinking of the same "invention" without knowing of the other. It happens all the time."

Thank you for making that point. That's supposedly why we have patent laws, so one can take on startup costs, without having the rug pulled out by someone else who may or may not be a copycat. Not to say that the patent laws don't get abused.

Chris Townsend's pix of his UK tent were published in his BP guide and Explore magazine well before the Rainbow came out. Which proves absolutely nothing. If the concept were original enough to be patentable in the US, the UK company could have sought protection.

Yes, the Carbon Reflex is similar to the Rainbow and the UK tent, but it is also just a Hubba with the spreader poles knocked off to save weight and reduce breakage with carbon that is more brittle than the DAC FL alloy. And the Hubba has also been out there for a good number of years, possibly before the Rainbow.

Agree that TT's use of hiking poles to substitute for the spreader poles was quite original, and apparently patentable, to judge from Henry's post.

[Travis Leanna]

Same thing in music. I hear musical phrases all the time that sound similar to previously composed pieces. It doesn't necessarily mean material was copied or stolen. Sometimes, yes, the material was copied, and even stolen. Most of the time, however, when musical material is used in a piece, it often is an allusion (not illusion), reference, or homage to a composer or work that preceded it. And, there's just the fact that no matter how vast the sea of possibility is, there will be some overlapping waves. Though, in this particular case, I'd prefer to believe Henry as well.

And isn't variety the spice of life? Imagine if you were only allowed to cook your vegetables one way. Or only allowed to eat from one restaurant. I can get a steak at countless restaurants and they'll all be fundamentally the same: a piece of cooked cow. But, the subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) variety that comes with each restaurant by infinite variables makes each experience unique.

You could argue that ever since the first mammoth skin was erected to protect the cavemen, each and every tent has copied that in some way.

[Franco Darioli]

Matthew
I would love to have someone from the MSR design team read your comment, I do need a bit of a laugh every so often.
Again I can only tell you what I know and I can assure you that at the time (2005) I never heard of Phoenix a brand that was well out of business by then and only rarely (I since found out..) discussed at Outdoor Magic. (the British forum)
But I tell you how design similarities can and do happen.
A few years ago I was looking at a design from another manufacturer I often correspond with (or used to but occasionally still do…) .
The design was OK but had a pretty small vestibule and was not a good weight for space package.
So I suggested to extend the brow pole ( that was inspired by the Vaude Hogan Ul…) and use two trekking poles to replace the standard front tent poles.
For several reasons (mostly not enough people wanting a solo/small double using trekking poles here or in the main market area for that brand) the design never went ahead but nevertheless if you want to see what it would have looked like, the Brooks Range Rocket tent is it except that I had the poles on the inside.
Now I am pretty sure that no one at Brooks has read my E Mails nor has a clue of who I am nor possibly even know the designer or brand I was talking to…
Franco
And BTW, Ben (our Ben here…) has an E Mail from me dated 12/16/07 that indicates my "new discovery" (a pic of the Phoenix) keep in mind that I had known the Rainbow since early 05…
Unfortunately most of my correspondence with Henry at the time was from work (I left 3 years ago) but if I still had that it would be very clear that both Henry's and my comments are in fact correct.

[Matthew Perry]

"Well, for one, I'm not sure calling Henry a liar is necessary. I'd prefer to believe him."

+1.

I did no such thing. I am merely giving my opinion and it just differs from some here on the forums. It's not about one company, but all taken as a whole. It was never my intent to single out one company or individual.

M

[James Casey]

I've sheltered in this tent everywhere from high mountains to remote deserts during these last 3 trip packed years… it's great.

Pros:
Handles wind /rain storms, roomy, fairly light, sets up fast, great vestibule storage, vents well and MSR stands behind it's products almost to a profitability fault.

Cons:
Need to carefully engage zippers to ensure satisfactory service life.
(not sure if that's a Con or Common Sense)

[Greg Mihalik]

^^^

4.5 years later, and many product iterations …

[Author]

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