MSR Carbon Reflex 1

[David Ure]

nm

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that. I began to wonder if I was the only one that suffers shock by the price of some fairly mediocre gear.

[Anonymous]

It'll probably go the way of the Hyperflow.

[Jeff Jeff]

Henry Shires must be so proud :D

[Roger Caffin]

MSR seem to have struggled since their founder died. It may be that committees, accountants and lawyers now rule.
Who knows?

cheers

[Franco Darioli]

Roger could be on the right track here. Apparently the marketing committee at MSR pushed very strongly towards brand differentiation, so it was decided that if they could not make them lighter than the Tarptents they should at least be more expensive.
Note that the liked the Rainbow so much that they adopted the same pole structure and even copied the "freestanding" mode. To their credit, there is more yellow than with the HS version.
Franco

[Jeff Jeff]

maybe HS is getting licensing fees?

[Franco Darioli]

See the "Rip-off by MSR ?" for the answer to that
Franco

[Chris Townsend]

This design isn't new. Back in the 1980s UK company Phoenix made two tents with the same design – the single wall Phreerunner and the double wall Phreeranger. I used both extensively and still have them somewhere. They were very stable for single hoop tents as they had three double guylines at each end and another three at the back. They didn't have the option of using trekking poles to make them freestanding though – I haven't seen that idea before.

[Henry Shires / Tarptent]

>They didn't have the option of using trekking poles to make them freestanding though – I haven't seen that idea before.

Yes, that's the concept that Tarptent invented, implemented, and is now patent-pending.

-H

[Franco Darioli]

Hi Chris
Interesting that you mention those two shelters because the first time I ever heard of a Phonix Phreeranger * (no offence, but outside the UK very few people would know of Phoenix) was from a comment from John Davis( several months after the tent had been designed) about the similarities of the two shelters. I remember that it took me sometime to find a picture of it, when I did it looked exactly like the Rainbow.
As I remember at that time HS was not aware of the Phoenix since the Rainbow was inspired by 3 other shelters one of which is a certain NZ tent that is about to adopt the "freestanding" option. The single hoop design is pretty common , less common with that is the cross spreader strut but as you stated the trekking pole is new and although very easy to copy it is a Tarptent idea . As a matter of fact whilst HS was playing with his Rainbow, Franco was trying (in his backyard) to come up with a light version of a freestanding tent that did not use the typical two cross pole design. When I saw a picture of the Rainbow in "freestanding" mode I had one of those "DOH !" moments. So simple, now that is done….
Franco
The Phreeranger was a two wall design. The Phreerunner (same single hoop pole but no cross strut and different vestibule design) was a single wall tent

[Bill Heiser]

Hi – I've been looking at this but am having sticker shock too. I'm surprised you refer to it as "heavy" though. It's supposed to be 2 lbs, 10 oz packed weight (excluding footprint). Almost every other _tent_ I've seen online is heavier … and this is downright featherweight compared to my (2000?) Mountain Hardwear Skyview 1.5 (something like 8.4 lbs without footprint)…

I agree though … this is "small" … and the non-freestanding nature bugs me and I know it would end up being a hassle sometimes.

What lightweight tents do you recommend instead? I'm not interested in a non-enclosed shelter or bivy style unit. Also, the Tarptents seem interesting, except they seem to rely on treking poles, which I don't carry…

I'm new to this forum … very interested in transitioning to "lightweight" backpacking, but not hyper vigilant about it (e.g. it's highly unlikely I'll drill holes in my spoon handles, etc).

Am I in the wrong place? :)

Thanks!

[EndoftheTrail]

Isn't this the same company that sold self-same but re-branded hiking poles — for more money? I remember posting about this a few years back — but the guy was happy to pay more because then, his poles would say "MSR". Go figure.

[Robert Cowman]

well is says it was made in the US, so it has to cost 6 times more than the one made in Asia… retailers don't even make a lot of money off cascade designs but must because the therm-a-rest name is like kleenex. and they've carried them since the year the whisperlite came out. I would much rather buy a Big agnes tent or pad or a POE pad. companies that care for the environment, and for innovation, then gigantic corporations who lust for money.

[Robert Cowman]

@bill

check out big agnes for the fly creek UL 1 or seedhouse SL line.
Tarptent has some models that don't use poles and you can get the pole sets. there is always Terra Nova and Vaude for the more obscure ones.

also gossamer gear tents(tarptents) have optional pole packages.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

You can find them on eBay for $349 Buy it Now. Sometimes you'll find them a bit less ($300+) on a private auction listing and of course used ones would be less still.

[Robert Cowman]

I knew I wasn't the only one… that's 4 on here from the middle of no mountains…

[Robert Cowman]

yea I leave for the north boundary on the 10th. forecast is good.

[Bill Heiser]

Thanks for the pointers … I'll do more research :). Meanwhile I've seen the CR 1 on sale in the mid $300's so maybe at the lower price it's not such a bad deal. Even my MH Skyview 1.5 was $310 10 years ago… But, yeah, at 450 or whatever it's really out there…

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

You might want to consider the REI Quarterdome T1. It's $199 at REI and you can get 20% of that regularly. I think there's a 20% off sale on now, so that would be $160. The Quarterdome T1 is claimed to weigh 2lbs 13oz, so comparing the claimed weights it's 3oz heavier than the MSR CR1 but way cheaper. With the money you save you could buy Fibraplex carbon fibre poles for the quarterdome and you'd be lighter than the CR1 and still cheaper.

http://www.rei.com/product/761891

[Scott Smith]

U want " true freestanding" Side entry .. 2 Vestibules . and light weight .. Try BA Copper Spur UL 1

[Ross Bleakney]

I just want to wade into this discussion to defend MSR a little bit. I don't know anyone who works there, so I can't defend them too much, but I think that some of the corporate bashing is a bit too extreme. A few things to keep in mind:

Cascade Designs is the parent company of MSR. I have no idea exactly how big they are, but I can't imagine they are very big. So far as I know, they don't sell clothing. In other words, they only sell outdoor equipment. This means that their size is pretty much a direct relation to the quality (or perceived quality) of their gear. Platypus and Thermarest are really popular because they are (or at least were) much better (in some way) than the alternatives. I would hardly call them a "gigantic corporation who lusts for money." As already stated, most of their manufacturing occurs in Seattle. This means that manufacturing costs them a lot of money. Boeing just moved one of it's plants to South Carolina, because labor is cheaper there. Making the hiking gear in Asia would save a huge amount more.

As to whether MSR used to be more innovative when Penberthy was in charge, that's what I used to think. Years after their best invention (their gas stove) it seemed like they couldn't come with anything new (or at least, anything new that interested me). Then they came out with the Denali. For folks on a tight budget, this was a great breakthrough. Most snow shoes at the time cost $200, but they came out with a totally new design (injection-molded plastic) and charged $100 for it.

None of this is to excuse their actions regarding the Rainbow. It's possible that they came up with the same idea without ever hearing about the Rainbow, but I doubt it. It's also possible that some folks knew about the Rainbow, passed on the idea, but never told people higher up about it. Even if this happened, it is inexcusable. If you work for a tent company (or a tent division) you should know about other tent makers (big and small). I'm not saying the head of Cascade Design knew, or even the head of MSR, but most likely the head of the tent division of MSR knew and, in my opinion should be fired. The really stupid thing is that they could have talked to Henry and worked out some sort of deal. The Hubba tent is not that different than the Rainbow, so it's not like MSR would be trying to copy the Rainbow from scratch. Henry is a reasonably guy, who understands this and understands that they sell to different markets (Henry isn't afraid of MSR). The reason Henry is upset (as I would be — actually, I think I would be more upset then Henry) is that they stole his idea.

This is why, in my opinion, MSR and Cascade Designs needs to figure out who knew what and when; fire (or at least severely reprimand) the appropriate people, then make a personal apology to Henry (in person) followed by a public apology (press release and web page).

I (as well as most people) have a pretty good opinion about MSR and Cascade Designs. It would be a shame to lose that. Personally, I think the tents made from the craft tent makers are simply better (and a better value). But at the same time, I know I'll buy another Cascade Designs product someday. I would like to feel good about it.

[Sam Farrington]

You might want to consider the new EMS tent. It is a knock-off of the MSR Hubba, but is over three feet wide at one end, and about 22" at the other, thus providing about the same floor area, but more elbow room than the constant 26" width on the Hubbas and the REI tent. It is also more high tech, using ball-shaped pole ends that snap into acetal plastic pole holders. Same height as the Hubbas, around 39", and about the same weight, under 3 pounds, depending on what stakes you use.
As for the Carbon Reflex, the pole is not as strong as Easton's specs would suggest. And IMP, pole strength is more critical in these Hubba type designs than in single or double cross domes, since a much larger portion of the Hubba types is supported by only one pole. In break tests, I found the carbon reflex pole to be a little weaker than the Easton .344 o.d. poles that TarpTent uses on the Moment. Both are significantly weaker than the heavier DAC FL poles used on the Hubbas and the EMS tent, or the Easton .340 o.d. pole Tarptent uses on the Scarp.
If I didn't need room for my dogs, I would buy the EMS tent and make a silnylon fly for it, and perhaps substitute a pole set made from the Easton .344 o.d.
Since the EMS tent also comes in a 2 person version, I may look into that. The EMS price is a little over $200.
These are all netting inners, except the Hubba HP.
Sam

[Matthew Perry]

"None of this is to excuse their actions regarding the Rainbow. It's possible that they came up with the same idea without ever hearing about the Rainbow, but I doubt it. It's also possible that some folks knew about the Rainbow, passed on the idea, but never told people higher up about it. Even if this happened, it is inexcusable. If you work for a tent company (or a tent division) you should know about other tent makers (big and small)"

It's also possible that Henry Shires came up with the Rainbow design without ever seeing the Phoenix Phreeranger tent, but i doubt that very much.It's like saying that Bruce Springsteen ripped off Bob Dylan and then John Cougar Mellencamp ripped off Springsteen. Of course they ripped each other off! Kind of obvious by looking at the pictures of the two (three if you include the MSR) tents. Just my opinion.

http://maceachain.blogspot.com/2009/04/phoenix-phreeranger_22.html

BF

[Henry Shires / Tarptent]

This is an old thread but I needed to respond to Matt's "opinion".

Back in the winter of '04/spring '05 when I started working on the Rainbow, I had absolutely no clue about british tents, especially ones that had long since passed from the scene. The Rainbow came about when I had a brainstorm sometime in the summer of '04 about how to make a free standing shelter using an arch pole and a pair of trekking poles. The cross strut just seemed like a good way to increase the headroom since without one you have a cramped A-frame style design. Sometime after I released the Rainbow early in '06 I did get an email from someone in England and then a subsequent letter with an old brochure of the Phreeranger. To be very clear, what I claimed then (now patented) was the combination of central arch pole and base poles to provide the necessary stability and fabric tension for free-standing setup. The cross strut was not/is not integral to the patent claims. FYI, if you look carefully at the Phreeranger and compared it to the first gen Rainbow you would see that it had a substantially different sleeve design, that is was a double wall (vs single wall Rainbow), and the cross strut is not integrated into the fly–it's two-piece and must be removed for takedown.

Fast forward to 2009/2010. My objection to the Carbon Reflex was never about the basic design as I had no claim to an arch pole tent with or without a cross strut. The problem happened when MSR started showing the CF with trekking pole setup. I think it's highly likely they had no idea about the pending patent application and that this forum was where they learned about it. The subsequent removal of such photos from their website took care of the problem.

-H

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