Imperial measurements

When it comes to fuel or other liquids, I would assume people are talking about fluid ounces.

No offense meant, but seeing that this is a public forum I believe it would be hard to ask for conformity. Even if all agreed, regular reminders would have to be posted for all the newcomers.

I think the whole purpose of this forum is to share ideas in an informal manner. It's great we sometimes have experts who write with great authority about a subject such as CLO in insulation, but it's just as great that someone like me can just remark that I like such and such brand/model because it's warm. ;-)

Conformity would no doubt be impossible to enforce, it was merely a suggestion for a semi-official unit of imperial measurement. I find the liquid one particulalry baffling as there can be a significant weight difference between a fluid versus that other kind of ounce. So maybe I should change this to a poll to help me decide what my default definition of an ounce will be:

For those of you who use the term "ounce" for a liquid, how many of you mean an ounce by weight versus by volume?

Hi Alison,

I tried something similar about two years ago, as like you I was sick and tired of reading the incorrect use of the the term ounce (ounce is a term for mass, US fl ounce is a measure of US volume) I suggested the much easier and more widely used metric system.

Let me give you some advice that it was a total waste of time.

Tony

Allison:

The system used here in the US is called the English System. It is completely different from the British Imperial system — which Britain devised for its empire after the American Revolution of 1776. The terms are the same (pounds, gallons, ounces, etc.) — but the actual measurements are very, very different. Just one example:

1 US quart = 0.83267384 Imperial quart

One good thing… Since Britain itself abandoned it, NO country uses the imperial system anymore. Now, it's really just the English system for the US — and Metric everywhere else.

The ounce is confusing as it stands for both weight and volume — depending on usage (context).

As for conversion to metric… so long as we Americans continue to use the English system in our everyday lives, it will be very difficult for us to remember to grab our calculators and use metric just for this forum.

Speaking for myself, I wish our country can just convert and get it over with… but I don't see it happening any time soon. Sorry…

16 ounces = 1 pound
1 ounce = 28.35 grams
8 fl ounce/ounce when referring to liquid = 1 cup
4 cups = 1 quart
1 quart = 0.946 liters
1 pound = 0.45 kilograms
1 kilogram = 2.20 pounds

1 fluid ounce also equals 29.57 mL, so a fluid ounce of water should weigh "about 1 ounce," but it's not exact like it is in the metric system where you have 1 mL of water weighing exactly 1 gram, 1 L weighing exactly 1 kg and so forth. Why it's close, but not exact, I have no idea. Probably the result of some adjustment in the nineteenth century to standardize one of the obsolete units of measure like the dram or the grain with the weight of the average grain of wheat or some d**n thing.

"Now, it's really just the English system for the US — and Metric everywhere else"

It's not just the US. Liberia uses it too.

>it's not just the US. Liberia uses it too.

the Union of Myanmar (Burma)is non metric but I am not sure if they use the US system or the old Imperial system

You have missed out on the bushel, the firkin, the hundredweight, the furlong, the dram, the stone, the … oh never mind.

Cheers

… gill, chain, rood …

"One good thing… Since Britain itself abandoned it, NO country uses the imperial system anymore. Now, it's really just the English system for the US — and Metric everywhere else."

They haven't officially abandoned it, but you get weird things like petrol being sold in litres but petrol consumption being measured in mpg.

On the other hand, because of the internet and increasing American media in Australia, there is now more imperial units being used in Australia than there was 10 years ago. People kept asking what my baby daughter weighed in pounds, I kept telling them 3.2 kg …

Damien,

Don't worry, we only weigh babies in pounds. Once they get to be kids, we weigh them in kilos. Also, even though your baby weighed 7lb, she'll be putting on 100-200g a week.

I don't think that there's any more imperial usage than there used to be, but peoples height and weight have been the hardest for people to convert to metric. This is a hold over from the imperial system, rather than a new change to the American system. This is also supported by your reference to MPG. We use British gallons when we convert this, not American. (It gives a MUCH better result)

It'll all go away in a couple more decades. No one under 25 knows what a foot, yard or stone equals any more.

Rod

"One good thing… Since Britain itself abandoned it, NO country uses the imperial system anymore. Now, it's really just the English system for the US — and Metric everywhere else."

"They haven't officially abandoned it, but you get weird things like petrol being sold in litres but petrol consumption being measured in mpg."

Several market traders in the uk are currently at the court of appeal after being sued by their local councils for selling fruit and vegetables in pounds and ounces. Meanwhile, and since their prosecution, the E.U. has ended it's insistence on Britain conforming to the metric system.

It's a mess.

When I started at school, we were still on Imperial Measure. Then the teachers came along with sticky tape graduated in centimetres, which they stuck on our rulers. Of course, we peeled it off again. :-)

Training as an engineer, I had to use drawings which were in either Imperial or metric, and tooling which was also in either system, so I'm pretty good at using mental arithmetic to freely convert between the two.

I think the metric system is good for scientific use and engineering too, but I still use feet and inches when I'm knocking up a wooden structure or fixing a roof. Imperial just seems better for 'everyday human scale' use.

It goes back to ancient egypt, where the cubit was the distance from your elbow to the tip of a finger. Which finger probably depended on which one the foreman on the job told you to use…

The real unit of measurement is the megalithic yard, as calculated by counting the swings of a pendulum while a star transits two poles one degree apart. This reconciles time, space, and gravity, angular momentum and the division of the circle in a simple and elegant system.

Those henge builders in the C5th BC knew more about the world then we credit them for.

Ooops

This wasn't a plea for Americans to convert to metric (that WILL happen, but not right away). And I'm sorry I confused the Imperial system with the American system. I was merely hoping for a) clarification when someone is stating liquid measurments as to whether they are referring to weight or volume; and b) A general feel for what everyone's default is when they say "an ounce of fuel". I see this is lot in, eg, pack lists where fuel is stated as say 10oz, and 10oz is added to the final pack weight, but if they really mean 10 fluid ounces of methanol, that's actually only 8oz weight. That's all!

As for converting between pounds and ounces, it's not too bad going from, say 4lb 11oz to 75oz, but converting the other way is really taxing on my brain. I don't suppose we could all just be happy with aiming for a base weight under 160oz!! ;)

Alison,
I think whenever an American refers to ounces of a liquid, it's safe to assume it's liquid measure, even though we're on a backpacking website where people are generally more interested in ounces of weight. Like you pointed out, a fluid ounce of alcohol weighs less than a fluid ounce of water, so the other way around wouldn't be consistent.

Rod wrote:
"This is also supported by your reference to MPG. We use British gallons when we convert this, not American. (It gives a MUCH better result)"

How on Earth is this possible? Would you care to explain? I thought that conversions were just a matter of multiplication, division or (in the case of temperature) addition or subtraction followed my multiplication. I have never, ever heard of a system of measure that converted unreliably, so I'd be anxious to hear about it if there were one.

To all metric system-users:
furlongs, rods, drams, grains, gills, pecks, mimims, pennyweights and scruples are obsolete units of measure. You'll only ever find them in a dictionary, on a "complete" list of conversions for the US system. There's a simple reason why that is, which is the same reason why metric system users tend to focus on centimeters, meters and kilometers, but not decimeters or hectometers.
12 inches = 1 foot
3 feet = 1 yard
1760 yards = 1 mile
5280 feet = 1 mile
640 acres = 1 square mile

Most Americans won't be able to tell you how many feet/yards are in a mile or how many acres are in a square mile off-hand because feet are rarely converted to miles. Miles are dealt with while driving or flying, or when calculating distances on a map. Feet and inches are dealt with when dealing with things you can stand still and look at from some vantage point, like a building, or a person's height, or a mountain's height (but not a mountain range's length). Similarly, the interior floor space of a building is given in square feet, but the area of a field is given in acres. The size difference between the units is large enough that you simply do not use the wrong unit for the wrong application. Yards are typically only used for measuring fabric, probably because when you're standing in front of a table, stretching out a length of fabric, 3 feet is about as far as you can stretch your arms comfortably and have about "1 unit" of fabric yardage, which simplifies counting if you don't have a calculator. Though a yard is very close to a meter, remember Americans (excepting those involved in science or engineering-related fields) don't use meters, so the yard is used in its place.

>>"This is also supported by your reference to MPG. We use British gallons when we convert this, not American. (It gives a MUCH better result)"

>How on Earth is this possible?

I assumed he meant that, since an imperial gallon is bigger than an American one, the MPG appears to be higher, thus a much better result?

"12 inches = 1 foot
3 feet = 1 yard
1760 yards = 1 mile
5280 feet = 1 mile
640 acres = 1 square mile"

This is really no different to the metric system, only the units and names are different.

1cm or 1mm = handy units of measure for small things like length of timber, rainfall, height…

100cm =1 metre (a handy unit of measure for fabrics etc, bigger heights such as mountains…)

1000 metre = 1 kilometre (a handy unit for driving and flying measurements)

10,000 square metres = 1 hectare (a handy unit to measure land/property)

Then there's the really small stuff where the American system just doesn't work at all, but Joe Average American doesn't work in these units (milli, micro, nano, pico, fempto metres/litres). This is purely the realm of science, and even American scientists need to use these units, as expressing them in millionths of an inch is just too cumbersome.

Anyway, it's good to know that *most* people use the liquid measurement of ounce to mean *fluid ounce*. I will take that as my assumed meaning from now on. Thanks Art

Actually most Americans these days are introduced to the metric system in school, though only in science class. I'd say that it's only the ones who sleep through science class and drop out while they're still in high school that have no concept of meter, liter or gram; although most still won't be able to relate them to the US system without looking at a conversion chart. You're right that millimeters don't have a suitable equivalent in the US system, but in measuring things like the diamaters of nuts and bolts, tolerances of certain machinery and other things related to construction, machinery and generally building things, eighths, sixteenths, thirtiseconds, and even sixtyfourths of an inch are often used rather than millimeters (although metric units are also used for these same things). Using fractions of an inch works if you can keep it all straight, but can make conversion to metric quite a bit more complicated, and introduces a pitfall for error for people who are poor with math and trying to add these kinds of numbers up in their head!

For the rest (milli, micro, nano), these are mostly used by people in the sciences and as you probably know, the metric system is always used in science, even in America.

I find it funny that we obstinately eschew the metric system, but we of course use it in our military. I learned land navigation skills as a military leader, and I honestly can't figure out how one could find their way around on a map without it. How exactly does one pace off and keep track of 100 "feet", of which a mile contains… 5280 or something like that? I mean wow.

Yeah, Phil, I know how ya feel, but change is slow. I actually grew up in the US (left when I was ~23), so was fully indoctrinated into the American system in my youth. After 25 years of using nothing but metric, I can no longer relate at all to the American system. It's totally alien to me, and it's seems so arcane and illogical in this modern world. Same happened to my brother after he moved to Japan. But I also understand that if the American system is all you've ever used, it makes perfect sense! No different to growing up speaking language X when everyone else is speaking language Y. It just seems right.

Allison- I have lived in the states my whole life (1/2 a century) and I can't wait until we change! I'm a builder and use our system all the time but it could be so much easier.
When I see one of my framers with a new guy ask him to add something like 13ft, 3 and 5/8th inches to 4ft, 10 and 3/4 inches it take about 5 minutes for them to figure it out and most of the time its not right (18ft, 2 3/8 in). I tell them that it would take about 2 days to make the switch to the metric system, they don't believe saying it would be too hard, until a ask them to show me how long 9ft 5 inches is? They pull out their tape and show me. If they had a metric tape they would use it for a stated measurement also. Its just what you know, except the metric system is a whole lot easier!
Also, take cooking- if you want to make a recipe bigger for 1 or 2 more people, its not very easy, try to add 2/3 of a cup and 3/4 cup (answer= 1 and 5/12 cups, find that on a measuring cup!).
But with ml's its all base 10- very easy!
I wish they would have made the change when they were talking about it in the 70's my life would have been so much easier.

>I wish they would have made the change when they were talking about it in the 70's my life would have been so much easier.

Yeah, I remember that half-hearted attempt to implement metric change. I think where they went wrong was trying to have everything posted in both units, eg the road signs would say so-and-so was 60 miles AND 100km. They should have just made the change without trying to compare the old measures to the new. People would soon figure it out how far 100km was.

I think the other problem with America going metric is having housands of factories re-tool to turn out metric products. The cost and time in that alone is hyooge. Think of all the odometers on cars that are in miles, nuts and bolts in part-inch sizes, packaging in quarts and gallons and ounces. Builders needing new tape measures, and so on. It's not trivial!

No it wouldn't be trivial but it can be done-
Canada has done it- I've been up there and they are no dumber/smarter then we in the states are. We just need to start.

If the US government is worried about deflation (i.e. folks stop buying today because they think the lousy economy will drive prices even lower tomorrow and then the whole thing becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that causes our economy to implode…) — and wants to "stimulate" the economy big time — THE BEST WAY is to legislate wholesle conversion to metric. Like Y2K computer spending but maybe 1,000 times bigger — just imagine all the money industry will need to spend to retool!!! This means force-spending our way out of the doldrums — and FINALLY getting us on the same Metric track as the rest of the world. Nice, eh? What's Obama's phone number?

Hey yeah, and it would give the public other things to think and gossip about besides the economy. Nice idea.

Actually, I LIKE the fact that we mix measurements. It gives our culture a certain unique charm that is lacking in so many other areas.