Stripped MSR windpro canister stove

[kevin davidson]

Sorry, Ryan, that you couldn’t test it, fully. I think your mod has a lot of merit. A full conversion of the stove to use Powermax cartridges (along Bill F.’s lines) would be the ultimate.

I would suggest this as a suggested alternative to Ryan Jordan for the Winter SUL trip. But– I don’t think it should be added to the gearlist(s) because of lack of info on how much fuel would be needed and because RJ may not be able (or want ) to build or be provided w/ such a modded stove.

Your project has got me interested enough to possibly purchase a Wind Pro rather than the Xtreme—I prefer MSR products to Coleman, anyway. Then I will mod away– I probably will fashion some sort of stand for it from rod stock.

[Ryan Faulkner]

I thought you were skiing?

I agree not to add it to the gear list because the canisters probably dont hold enough fuel for RJs cooking so he may have to carry multiple canisters not loosing any weight.

to me the MSR simmerlite looks like the same design, it may be a more winter worthy stove, and if it is a similar design, it may be able to be stripped.

I tried stripping a wisperlite, but with the pump, it is not any weight reduction to RJs list so I dident bother making a stand for it, but mabey a simmerlite

[Bill Fornshell]

Ryan, Do you have the weight of just the legs from the WindPro? I have the Xtreme down from 11oz to about 6.26oz but without legs or a pot stand. This weight includes a lightened Mag casting which I am about to finish working on and a lighter burner head from the Coleman F1 UltraLight Stove.

I have played with different legs/pot stands but don’t really like what I have come up with so far.

Thanks

[Ryan Faulkner]

the stand that came on the windpro weighs 2.2oz and my stand weighs 1oz exactly.

also, Bill your rapidfire stove looks similar to the wisperlite. I think you said that you could not remove the legs, but this morning I was playing around with a wisperlite and I removed the legs sucessfuly.

[Bill Fornshell]

Hi Ryan, Thanks for the weigh on the WindPro legs. I made a set of leg for the Xtreme out of some thin Ti sheet stock (the three legs weighed about 19gr.)
but I didn’t fold or put a grove in the Ti and the legs would lean over under the weight of a pot of water.

I have made a few more versions but don’t really like them yet. The 2.2oz for the WindPro legs is still more than I want. I think I will end up with a very light stove stand and a separate pot stand. My weight limit is about 1oz total for the 2 items.

That gives me a finished ready to go to the woods Xtreme at about 7.5oz and still have the Mag casting though that has been reduced about 35% from the orginal weight.

Many years ago the Rapid Fire was MSR’s remote canister style stove. It looks just like the Whisperlite which was also sold back then. I am talking back about 12 to 15 years maybe. I will have nothing to do with liquid fuel stove except for alcohol stoves.

At the time I modified the Rapid Fire to attach to the PowerMax canister I just didn’t want to take the legs off.

[Ryan Faulkner]

Bill have you tried using a can like I did for my stove? my stand/potsuport weighs 1oz but you would need a thinner can for the Xtreme so it could be lighter than an oz.

[Bill Fornshell]

Hi Ryan, I have played with several different cat food can support systems. They work and are very light but I am still looking for other ideas.

I really think I want a stand for the stove and another stand for the pot. That way I can fit the cook pot to the stand and change the cook pot stand when I use a different size cook pot. The cook pot stand would be a simple circle cut out of Titantum with 4 aluminum or carbon fiber tube legs attached to it. If I am real clever I will come up with a second thing to use the tubing for.

An empty PowerMax canister might work for your stove stand if you can find one. Once you puncture the empty canister you can cut them down and use the aluminum canister for material. They are stronger than an aluminum can and almost as light.

[Jason Smith]

Could you save weight by making a hanging stove system?

[Michael Martin]

Bill, Ryan F., anyone else…

Could the hose of a windpro be cut off right next to the stock windpro valve and attached to the brass nipple on the Xtreme valve assembly? (I mean right to the valve — ditch the whole Xtreme fuel line.) If this works, it might result in a stable stove in the 7-8oz range, that would use the lighter Powermax fuel cans. Whatcha think???

Cheers,

-Mike

[Bill Fornshell]

Michael Martin asked?
“Could the hose of a windpro be cut off right next to the stock windpro valve and attached to the brass nipple on the Xtreme valve assembly? (I mean right to the valve — ditch the whole Xtreme fuel line.) If this works, it might result in a stable stove in the 7-8oz range, that would use the lighter Powermax fuel cans. Whatcha think???
Cheers,
-Mike”

NO. Mike, part of the engeering or physics that lets the Xtreme stove system work in real cold weather is what is IN the gas line for the Xtreme. Unlike the empty hose on the MSR WindPro the gas line on the Xtreme is made up of 3 parts for the braided section and 2 parts for the brass line section. I believe the Coleman gas line is necessary for a good “very cold weather” burning stove.

[Michael Martin]

Bill writes:

>> NO. Mike, part of the engeering or physics that lets the Xtreme stove system work in real cold weather is what is IN the gas line for the Xtreme.

Thanks for the note, Bill. Umm, I’m an engineering geek, remember…

I understand *how* the Coleman line is built. (I’m still working on *why*, but I think I have it 99% figured out.)

What I’m really asking is, “Will the Windpro hose physically fit on the Xtreme nipple?”.

Thanks,

-Mike

PS — OT, but this reminds me of two of my favorite quotes:

“The difference between theory and practice is greater in practice than in theory.”

The Physics major asks, “Why does it work?”
The Engineering major asks, “How does it work?”
The Liberal Arts major asks,”…Want fries with that?” <g>

[Apologies to non-techies everywhere for that last one…]

[Bill Fornshell]

Ok Mike, so you didn’t like that answer, as an old infantryman how about “kick it and see if it moves”. I really wanted to say stabe it but I am not sure I can say that. How about “Give me some C4 and I will find out”.

Sorry I guess I read to much into the question.

Back to the question:

Yes, I think the hose from the WindPro would clamp onto the nipple that comes out of the brass value with the needle valve in it. The hose on the WindPro is small and looks about the same size as the inside hose on the braided part of the Xtreme.

[Michael Martin]

Many thanks, Bill!

One followup question to anyone who owns a WindPro:

Can the WindPro valve be removed non-destructively?

I’d be willing to go purchase a Windpro, try it out, and report back. But, I’m hesitant to kill a $70 stove if it doesn’t work.

Cheers,

-Mike

PS — BF, I’ve heard that C4 stuff is more dangerous than magnesium… ;-)

[david chan]

Mike Martin wrote
“The Physics major asks, “Why does it work?”
The Engineering major asks, “How does it work?”
The Liberal Arts major asks,”…Want fries with that?” <g> “

I like the definition of an engineer “An Engineer is someone who can do for sixpence what any damn fool can do for half a crown”. For all those unfamiliar with pre-1971 U.K. currency units, half a crown was worth five times sixpence.

I suggest we amend that to “an Engineer is someone who can do for one ounce what any damn fool can do for five”

David

[david chan]

I neglected to spell out the implications of this new definition of an Engineer. Any Engineers out there should either produce amazing solutions to the problems raised here or admit that Bill (who I believe is a retired art teacher) is America’s greatest Engineer.

David.

[Bill Fornshell]

Hi David, I take that as a nice compliment. While I did teach Art after my real job and the one I retired from, 28 years as a US Army Infantryman. I spent many a year wondering why I had to carry so much heavy stuff on my back and the backs of my men. The real answer was it had to take the worst treatment anyone could imange such as falling out of an airplane and be dragged behind some airborne troop while he/she is trying to sort things out, etc, etc. Anyway it was a truly great 28 years and I got to see it from both ends of the rank thing having started out as one of those RA inlisted guys.

If we learn to ask ourselfs a few questions about our gear like “how is it made” “why is it this way” “what if I try it like this” then anyone can improve what they are using and come up with good ideas. OR if they only come up with the good ideas someone will be able to made it happen.

The nice part of this web site is the free flow of ideas.

[Bill Fornshell]

Sorry David, I guess I have been eating to much “Mag” dust. That is a joke. I am very careful and use a dust mask, safety glasses, ear plugs etc, etc as I mill the weight off my Xtreme Stove.

I have finished the “mag” casting and it weighs .99oz. Down from 1.7oz. The Mag alloy polishes up just like chrome

[kevin davidson]

Anymore thoughts about the stove stand/pot stand setup?

Obviously, the work of art that you are working on is probably not going to be emulated by RJ anytime soon. Any chance you would lend him your Xtreme for the Winter SUL trip?
If not (and that’s understandable), what aspects of your Xtreme mod could be achieved w/o recourse to a metal shop and specialty milling equipment?

[Michael Martin]

Ok, so I got a shiny new Windpro today…and took it apart. :-)

The Windpro valve assembly weighs 30g.
The stock Xtreme valve assembly weighs 103g.

The difference is 73g or 2.6oz.

In spite of the engineering effort Coleman went through with the extra parts in the Xtreme fuel line, I expect mating the Xtreme valve to a Windpro would work just fine for full-throttle snow melting. But, IMHO, it’s not worth the weight. You recover some of that 2.6oz when you figure in the canister weight. But it doesn’t seem worth it unless you are carrying enough fuel for an Arctic expedition.

FWIW, a stock windpro and single 220g canister combination would weigh:

6.8oz (stove)
7.8oz (fuel)
5.3oz (empty can)

---

19.9oz

Assuming the windpro can be operated smoothly with an inverted canister, and would produce similar fuel efficiency to the Xtreme (untested!), we might have (yet!) another option for Ryan’s SUL challange.

This option might boil around 6.5L of water (untested!). This would require some innovative water conservation techniques and/or supplemental cook fires for Ryan to make it work. But, it’s *really* light!

Cheers,

-Mike

[kevin davidson]

You da engineer, Michael.
It’s hard correlating RJ’s and Roger Caffin’s fuel consumption figures. If you take Roger’s, RJ will be taking fuel back home. With Ryan’s, he may need more than one canister. This was specific to the Powermax cartridges, though.

Are you going to execute full surgery on your new Wind Pro?

[Michael Martin]

KD writes:

>> Are you going to execute full surgery on your new Wind Pro?

Nah, it’s not worth the weight. Plus, I’d have to irreversibly cut the Windpro fuel line.

On another note, it’s probably too late to consider this option with our deadline two days from now and no testing done. But, I like tinkering with this stuff for the sheer fun of it — even if it doesn’t make the final gearlist cut.

Also, Bill’s stunningly beautiful Ti Stand for his Xtreme might be sturdier in a “Windpro” configuration because the legs attach to the burner in two places rather than the Xtreme single attachment point. Hey, with Ti legs, a Windpro could come in around 5.2oz!

Finally, we have cold temps and snow right now. So, I plan to do some snowmelt tests with the “inverted” windpro, attempting to duplicate Ryan J’s test conditions.

Cheers,

-Mike

[Ryan Faulkner]

it snowed a few inches last night so I decided to test my windpro.
I have never meled snow before so I think my results could have been better with more experience, but I tried to use RJs method as best I could.
I twisted the canister upside down and used it on a foam pad
the stove was also on the pad with a metal base base between the stove and pad
24degrees outside (I had the canister in the freezer for 3+ hours)
light wind
I used my MSR 2L duralite pot with lid(heavy)
I melted/boiled all 2 liters at once.
it used about 2.0 – 2.1oz of fuel
it began to boil at about 16min, but came to a rolling boil at 17

melt time: 10min
boil time: 17min

[Ryan Faulkner]

even if Ryan J dosent use it on his SUL adventure,at 5.7oz, this is definately my winter stove for now on, I guess I will never use white gas again. (this may not be so bad :-))

[Michael Martin]

Ok, I had a chance to test the Coleman Xtreme against a MSR Windpro using an inverted canister tonight. I attempted to reproduce Ryan J.’s recent test as closely as possible. Here are the results:

Setup:

Ambient Temp: 16 deg F
1-3 mph breeze
2300 ft Elevation
Open Country 2L pot
6″ tall aluminum foil windscreen w/ .25″ perforations along bottom edge
Begin with 8 fl oz seed water at 48 degrees
Boil 2L (including seed water) of water from snow
I would decant 1L of boiling water half way through and use the remaining boiling water as seed water to boil the remaining snow to produce 2L total.

Results:

Xtreme: 30 minutes using 55g (1.9 oz) fuel
Windpro: 30 minutes using 64g (2.3 oz) fuel

Notes:

1) The windpro lights and runs smoothly with an inverted canister at all throttle settings. Judging by the “roar level” of the stove, there is no detectable difference between upright and inverted canister operation.

2) I did make the mistake of unscrewing the canister from the Windpro in the inverted position — I got a nice liquid propane freezer burn on my finger. I recommend attaching/detaching the canister in the upright position.

3) By tightening or loosening the fitting on the windpro valve 180 degrees, it can be oriented so the default position is inverted. Upright operation is still possible by twisting the hose as Ryan F has shown in his pictures. Note that the twist to make the inverted hose operate upright puts less torque on the stove than the twist to make the stock upright hose operate inverted. With the hose adjusted 180 degrees from stock, the stove can be setup in either orientation without tipping an unweighted stove over. The Windpro hose is considerably more flexible than the Xtreme hose.

4) I began both tests with a partial canister and observed constant output on both stoves (again, just judging from the “roar level”). The windpro stove output finally fell off with about 10g of fuel left. I stopped the timer, and switched to another canister, relit the stove and restarted the watch. 7g of fuel remained in the first canister. I used 6g in the second canister.

5) Using an infrared thermometer, I monitored the temperatures of both stoves’ canisters and valves during operation. All temperatures were within 5 deg F of ambient air temp. This suggests that the fuel did not vaporize in either stove until reaching the pre-heat tube near the burners.

6) The snow to water volume was approximately 5:1. I.e., 5L unpacked snow would melt down to 1L water.

7) My boil time for the Xtreme stove was considerably longer than Ryan J.’s recent test. Speculation….

a) I’m not as nimble as Ryan in moving the snow around — I had to remove the lid 4-5 times per 2L boil to add snow.

b) My test elevation was 2300ft rather than the Bozeman stratosphere.

c) Snow water content varies.

d) Variation in stove output.

e) I began my test with a partial Powermax Canister.

8) As it was difficult to determine exactly how much water would be made from a given volume of snow, I actually produced 1900ml of boiling water during the Windpro test and 2050ml during the Xtreme test. The test times and fuel consumption above have been normalized as if each test had produced 2L of boiling water.

9) Both stoves were operated at maximum output. However, no “flame spillage” was observed beyond the bottom of the pot.

10) Only 1 trial was performed on each stove. Plus, I switched canisters halfway through the windpro test. So, don’t jump to the conclusion that the Xtreme is 12% more fuel efficient than the Windpro. The repeatability of the experiment is unknown.

Cheers,

-Mike

[Roger Caffin]

> Roger Caffin suggests not running the Xtreme flat out for max. fuel efficiency. I wonder if this could apply to this stove as well.
Sure does. In fact, you should not make a big thing out of which stove you are using. They all have a round burner which produces a flame, and it’s the flame which heats the pot. All the ones we are considering have large diameter burners.

> it’s possible that the fuel consumption rate of the Wind Pro could neutralize the weight savings in the stove.
It makes very little difference which gas stove you use as far as efficiency is concerned. But it DOES matter how much heat you waste up the side of the pot by running it flat out. All the stoves being considered can be turned down enough to run at good efficiency.

Owing to my not having read this thread first, I have just posted essentially the same weight figures over on the SUL Forum channel. The one thing I will emphasise is that a 100 g canister is enough for two nights for one person, IF the stove is run efficiently. So Ryan J could get away with 400 g (14.1 oz) for stove and fuel for the trip.

Cheers

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