Bear Can Cheating?

I agree with Bob. I've been watching this thread for a long time and I will now speak up.

If a bear canister is required by the rules, WHY risk getting in trouble with officials? It’s time people decided to do the right thing and obey the rules. If you lie to the ranger and he (or she!) finds out, you could get fined, or even worse, get your permit confiscated.

I agree with people who say it’s a pain in the butt to haul a bear canister. But rules are rules, and they are designed to protect us and the next person to use the campsite. We as BPL’s have the responsibility to obey the rules, regardless of how stinkin’ annoyin’ it is to haul that canister.

If lightweight hikers make disobeying the rules a habit, what will the world think of us? Many already think we’re a bunch of freaks who play with death because we don’t carry the pounder first aid kit, the 2 pounder “survival” kit, and 3lbs of navigation equipment. If we skimp on the rules, others will look down on us.

So, let’s be good people and obey the rules, Ok, guys?

Thx, Evan

If I recall from last year, the rangers in the Adirondack Park said that bears have figured out how to open Bearvault containers, and that only the Garcia is allowed now. Somehow they get a tooth or claw under the lip and rip the top off. I think there was a display with a ripped-open and chewed-up Bearvault at one ranger station.

It is possible they were referring to an older model. I know nothing about Bearvaults.

There's cheating and then there's cheating. I just reviewed the bear canister required areas in the Sierra. In some cases you don't need a can the first few nights from the trailhead or resupply, but do later. That could reduce the size or number of cans needed for a group- but you would need to do a proper hang.

A perfect example is Sonora Pass to Tuolume where a can is only required within the Yosemite borders.

If you hike the Muir Trail north to south on the 15 day schedule I used last year:

-Yosemite to Tuolumne- 1 night, bear can required or use boxes LYV or Sunrise
-Tuolumne to Red's- 1 night, bear can required.
-Red's to Muir Trail Ranch- 3 nights. Bear can required where I stayed first night, but not required if I had changed my camp location 1/2 mile.
-Muir Trail Ranch to Whitney Portal- 6 nights. Bear can only required last 3 nights, but according to my permit through-hikers don't have to carry can if they camp at bear box locations. In my case I would have only needed to switch my final night location to avoid needing a can.

Looking at this trail it appears that the only segment where a can is absolutely required is from Tuolumne to Red's. I can see even avoiding it there if you took the PCT route and camped at Agnew Meadows campground- a hike of about 27 miles.

I'd like someone to calculate the hiking mileage comparison between hiking until dark carrying a 43 ounce can vs. stopping a bit earlier and fiddling around with a completely secure bear hang. For me starting out in the dark, taking my big breaks in the afternoon, then hiking until dark it seems the bear can is a lot simpler.

I had a ranger (in Yosemite) basically search my pack. Since my attorney was not with me, I could not evaluate if it was a "legal" search. Glad I had the canister…

I think you can carry food outside the canister while hiking (I may be wrong), but you need to definitely store it there at night.

You certainly don't need a canister at Sonora Pass. For years there have been two, mostly always overflowing, simple galvanized garbage cans, sitting next to the pit toilet. The "meat" bees swarming around them are the biggest problem.

If you are planning to get a bear can that is too small just to save a little weight, that's silly. The weight is mostly in the lid. Get the biggest one that weighs the least for its size that you can afford. You'll be much happier and your food will be less crushed and you'll sleep better at night.

When a rule or law is clearly stupid, wrong, unjust or whatever I can get into the concept of "civil disobedience" or whatever you want to call it. Bad rules ought to be broken.

But I cannot see bear canisters in this light. The canister rule makes sense to guide the bears into the "right path", and they make sense to give me peace of mind and keep my food secure. I hate hauling that 2.7 pound keg as much as the next guy, but I will keep doing it till I get an Ursack, and then will try to do most of my trips into areas that are not canister manditory. I don't want encounters with either hostile rangers or park bears.

What do people think is worse, cooking where you camp or not carrying a bear canister?

I think carrying a canister is still a judgment call. If I don't cook at all and stealth camp and sleep with my food I don't see my risks as significantly higher than those with canisters. Of the people I was hiking with or near on the pct last year when we went through the sierra, the two direct bear interactions were with someone who had a canister but left a bar in their pack, resulting in a shredded pack and fed bear. The other incident was someone who was strongly in favor of following the policy to the letter, but their food was taken the night before entering the zone where canisters were required.
Those who appeal on behalf of the bears, how often do you carry a canister where it is not required?

I see the value of the regulations and believe in them being there, but I will take my chances in certain situations where I am comfortable. If I don't cook, stealth camp in remote and uncommon locations, and sleep with my food and am prepared to do my best to deter bears, I consider not taking a can.

" stealth camp in remote and uncommon locations"

And just how does one know a "stealth" camp isn't the bears favorite place to hand out? To me, stealth relates more to not seeing people. There is no way to figure out where bears might want to be.

I dislike canisters and only take them where required but I would still hang and never have my food with me.

Bears that are looking for food are looking for people. All the bears I saw were close to trailheads or popular camping sites.

It's hard to hang well above treeline in the sierra, and at higher elevations its far less likely to encounter a bear.

I would rather have my food with me in black bear country, so if a bear does come after it I have a good chance of scaring it off and keeping my food. There is a reason hanging is no longer approved in parts of the sierra. Black bears are excellent climbers and have even been observed sending their young out to retrieve food on branches too thin for adults or simply jumping on a branch until it breaks.

Simon,

Do you use OP sacks when you keep your food with you?

I guess from my experience I have seen bears enter tents because food was inside. I have never had a hanging bag compromised or even looked at by a bear. I don't think I would sleep well if I had my food with me.

Quoting Simon Winchell:
"I would rather have my food with me in black bear country, so if a bear does come after it I have a good chance of scaring it off and keeping my food."

Simon, I think you should make it crystal clear that your statement is personal opinion rather than advice. In my experience, bears that are after food are not too impressed with ones efforts to scare them away. I suspect that your lack of trouble with bears (thus far) is more a consequence of good luck than anything related to knowledge or superior woodsmanship.

Personally, I would rather carry a bear canister than to wake up some night with a bear rolling me over to get at my food. YMMV

In 50+ years of knocking around the woods, I've never had a problem with bears – until last summer.

My wife and I were dayhiking around a lake in the Eastern Sierras, a place we go every other year or so. The lake can be accessed by boaters.

At the far end of the lake, as we rounded a bend, there was a bear about 15 yards away. We made noise, backed up slowly, and he followed us, sniffing, for about 20 yards, then swung his head toward the (hidden) shore, sniffed some more, and went down towards the lake.

Later that day, we got the story: a boater had left a cooler full of food near where we encountered the bear, apparently to stake out a lunch spot. The bear discovered the cooler, ate the food, then apparently associating people smell and food, started checking out the other humans on the shore – mostly fishermen, who donated their trout to the bear. At some point, he wandered up to the trail, where we met him. Apparently we didn't smell like we had food (couple of powerbars, wrapped). then he went back to the shore, and convinced a few more fishermen to contribute their catch to him.

So far as I know, no one was injured. But if that behavior continued, the bear would have become a "problem" bear, with the results we know.

And all because someone made human-smelling food available to the bear.

Canisters are a pain, but I think they should be used, along with other techniques, to keep human-marked food from bears.

Evan:
Would you feel the same if the pounder first aid kit and 2 pounder survival kit were the required equipment?

"Evan:
Would you feel the same if the pounder first aid kit and 2 pounder survival kit were the required equipment?"

We could say that about anything. Boots, tents, hiking poles, etc. It's a moot point because the survival kit, etc. are for our survival. The bear problem is for their survival (or destruction).

Still wish I could use an Ursack though!