I did it! 5 lb Base Wt

Reply to Victoria:
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Please – read the article on this site. It explains everything.

LINK:
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http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/toilet_paper_free.html

I have taught in the wilderness for NOLS for 14 years. I have taught the poo-pooing-in-the-woods to many hundreds of students. It works. I star my class by telling my students that they will, one day, need to teach their peers how to safely perform this simple act. It's a class I truly care about.

Victoria asked:
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"i wouldn't want to step on a rock, leaves, snow or stick with, as you say, poo-poo on it,either."

My reply:
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I am advocating the wise use of natural "toilet paper" (rocks, leaves, snow, and sticks) instead of store bought toilet paper. There is minimal fecal matter on these items, and – yes – these are left at the poo-poo site.

The biological matter will break down, depending on the environment, slowly or quickly.

The fecal matter glommed onto the first few wiping stones (or whatever) go in the cat hole. The remaining wiping stones (with minimal contaminating material) are scattered in a way to minimize their impact (under bushes, etc.).

= = and = =

Victoria asked:
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"are you saying that using rocks, leaves, snow, and sticks would not endanger wild life, but they will dig up TP and eat it?"

My reply:
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Animals (coyotes, rodents, raccoons) will dig up shallowly buried fecal material. I have camped in the same place for multiple nights with a large team, and we've found our poorly buried poo-poo dug up the next day.

I have found toilet paper shredded by mice.

I am advocating the responsible practice of proper burial of fecal matter, and the proper (and safe) dispersal of natural toilet paper.

It's in the article.

It is impractical to carry your poo-poo out of the mountains, but that is REQUIRED in a lot of places. It is now the RULE in places like Mt. Rainier and the regular route on The Grand Teton etc.

Go out camping, and carry two weeks of poo-poo out of the mountains, I've had to do it in areas of the North Cascades. It's awful. This is a very real issue and it's exasperated park employees that are making these new rules because of poorly educated users of our beautiful wilderness lands.

= = = =

Also:
A certain term, which I am spelling incorrectly here (POOOP) is considered profanity by the BPL forum. So, I’ve used the term POO-POO throughout…

It would be nice if people could be convinced that toilet paper is litter. Interesting how many people that would never "litter" have no qualms with burying wads of paper wherever they go.

Nobody that uses toilet paper has answered my question as to why TP should be considered different than any other paper trash.

Except Brian…who has basically said he will go on littering (albeit probably burying the litter) because carrying it out is disgusting.

Please at least try going TP free people, it's not hard.

Right on Craig!

Mike,
Your gear list showed you use a Platy for water.

With or without a hose?

If without, how do you manage to flood the critical path?
Even with a hose there have to be a few tricks?

I don't carry a solid sided water bottle, so figuring out the Platy technique is critical to success.

Thanks in advance. I know you're vested.

Amazing that we have to re-learn what we've been doing for literally a million year plus!

Mike — how about just doing a video — the mother of all butt-washing illustration — and get the message across once and for all?

Mike's article has an illustration of the technique. Conveys all of the information.

No hose needed…

I just had a voila moment. I will be marketing the "Backcountry Bidet- trademark" in the coming months.

"Amazing that we have to re-learn what we've been doing for literally a million year plus!"

That is exactly the way I see it Ben.

Free yourself!
Discover the animal within!

> Who packs out ALL their toilet paper?

I do!

Carrying around your used toilet paper is not disgusting, if you handle it properly. If you're particularly squeamish, take a small plastic 'lunch' bag and immediately bag up your paper and seal it off. Then put it in a double (or triple!) plastic bag for holding all of your "deposits". If you are sensible with how you do it, there will be minimal contamination on the smaller bags and none on the larger bags. It won't smell, and if you use a darker coloured plastic bag you don't need to see it either. The only potential problem is puncturing the bag(s) but it's never happened to me and I don't really see how it could.

Something else you can try is using a lighter to burn _some_ of the toilet paper. Obviously anything that is wet or covered isn't going to burn, and you need to pack it out. I usually don't bother, and just pack it all out, but it often works surprisingly well.

I should note that I have also tried Ben's natural method of hand and water. Tried it on a 3 week trip one time. After getting over the "ick" factor I can confirm that it does a very good job of getting you clean. However, I found a spent an inordinate amount of time making sure my hand was clean afterwards (in case you got any under your nails etc!).

Mike's natural method of leaves and stones is an appealing alternative to me. I might give it a go and see if I can find some reasonable stones/leaves on my next trip. I can imagine that nicely rounded and smooth river stones would work a treat! But those pointy sharp ones up in the mountains might disagree with me…

Lastly, there is simply no excuse for leaving toilet paper on the trail (even buried!). It is revolting to come across other people's TP and really spoils the experience of being in the wilderness if you feel like you are walking through someone else's garbage. Buried toilet paper often doesn't stay that way, and can take a *very* long time to break down in alpine environments.

Greg.

I never use a hose for my platy. I've seen too many broken hoses, it just adds tot he hassle factor. I stop ocationally, take it out of my pack, chug a bunch and that's it.

I keep my mug near the top of my pack, and I use that for dipping and filling the platy's tiny opening.

You asked:

"If without,how do you manage to flood the critical path?"

I'm not sure what you mean? Lemme know…

What's wrong with burning the TP in the cat hole and then urinating on the tiny bit that remains to prevent possible fires? I have checked the remains a year later at a place I return to year after year and it is completely composted. I lift up a large rock instead of digging a cat hole to prevent animals from getting at the material, from where it will almost surely find its way into the nearest water source. I'm not squeamish or arguing against the water method in theory, but I do have reservations about getting my hand completely clean afterward, as other posters have noted. I am currently gravitating to the use of a small bit of TP to get the initial big stuff off and then finishing with water. Sort of a halfway house approach I guess.

Why is toilet paper not litter?
Hmmm I cannot convince someone who sees it as so that it is not. To me TP is simply part of my waste. It is plant fiber separated from cellulose material now mixed with waste- buried in the dirt. I simply cannot use the same digits I eat and touch loved ones with to wipe my but with. TP isnt a barrier to germs so much as a barrier between my hands and waste. There is nothing "pure" or idealistic about it. I am not a follower of LNT. It is a fancy word for displaced impact and I follow minimal impact. In other words I fully recognize that I have an impact where ever I go. I just try not to have a negative impact. But then we can get into counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and split hairs on every action I take. The fact is nothing I (we) do is pure.
Like I said I do often use leaves when available (and bury with the waste) but I also bring TP as well.
Do those of you who find TP immoral use it at home?
If so, why is it OK then and suddenly wrong when you drive over an imaginary Park boundary? Both places are connected.

Nowhere in Mike's article (Toilet Paper Free Expeditions) does he mention wiping with fingers/hand. He talks about using found materials to wipe with. He discusses cleaning your rear using your hand, soap, and water, which is no different than taking a shower without a washcloth.

Alright, somebody has to do it — Here's the step by step:

1. Time to go? Take your water bottle, trowel, and hand sanitizer.
2. Locate a good spot away from people, trails, and water sources.
3. Dig hole (6 inches) — squat — do your thing.
4. Done? Cup your hand, pour a bit of water and wash your bottom. You do this by using your index and middle fingers to clear out any residue — with an assist from the water in the palm of your hand — which you tilt as needed. Repeat a few times (the final time is basically rinsing).

5. Pull up your pants (you did wear wicking/quick-drying undies, right?) — cover the hole — with LNT in mind.

6. Sanitize your hand. Return to camp. Let people shake your hand and congratulate you.

Being right handed, I always pour water with my left hand and do the cleaning with my right. Keep consistent to avoid cross-contaminating water bottle vs. your cleaning hand.

Generally speaking, sitting on a toilet, there may still be a lot of residue (eeeww factor) — but when squatting, I find that the bowel pushes out most everything much more easily and freely. So the 'eeeww factor' is not that bad — once you've done it two or three times — it may well disappear altogether. Now that's liberating, isn't it?

Just think: no more counting/allocating TP — less stuff to pack (or burn) — and best of all — nothing to pack out.

Folks are missing some key details. Misnomers abound.

I feel like this is spiraling out into some nether-world of misinterpretations.

I take responsibility for starting this discussion, so I'll speak in the first person.

I've been at the forefront of this toilet-paper quandary when I suggested to Linda that she could go into the mountains without TP. It's easy!

1. I AM NOT ADVOCATING the water method for each poo-poo. Nobody is advocating this, where did it come from?

2. I AM NOT ADVOCATING wiping your butt with your hands.

3. PLEASE – read the article on this site. It explains everything.

LINK:
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http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/toilet_paper_free.html
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Okay – Just so folks know, I almost NEVER wash my butt in the mountains during an expedition. But, when I do, it's a nice thing. (Ahhhh…)

There seems to be this misinformation that I wash my butt after each poo-poo event, and I'm advocating this. NOT SO. In fact, I do a field wash less than once a year (I suspect), and I work a lot of 30-day courses.

Butt washing is a very nice skill to have if only if things get itchy after 20 days in the mountains.

– – also – –

4. I strongly advocate carrying used toilet paper out of the mountains. Or – burning it fully when appropriate.

5. Craig W. is my main man!

Mike:

Now you are confusing me. Why fuss with leaves or cones or rocks or whatever — when folks can just use their hands as I described above? Not only is "the hand method" the easiest and the lightest — it is also the most sanitary!

Right on Ben!

I have used this method, and it's fine.

This is basicly the step-by-step I give in the BPL article. (with cartoon).

I guess I would advocate soap and water over hand sanitizing, just from the studies I've read. If you use hand sanitizer, you need to use a lot. Squirt out a glob at least the size of a peanut M&M.

— also —

Ben posted an instructional, here's the LINK:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=17177&skip_to_post=130346#130346

Thanks, Mike.

Or folks can just click here.

Now back to Linda's SUL <5 lbs gear list! :)

MC wrote: "at least the size of a peanut"
peek into cathole for reference…
haha now thats funny!

i have been staying away from tp lately. plenty of sticks around. you dont want to wipe your butt with catsclaw. that could be bad!

btw.. congrats on the 5lb base weight. hope you can find your way to SUB 5, it is one of the hardest things to do. I have benn lucky enough to do it numerous times, even with a 20oz hammock. peace!

nm – wrong thread

Brian said
"Do those of you who find TP immoral use it at home?
If so, why is it OK then and suddenly wrong when you drive over an imaginary Park boundary? Both places are connected."

Sure it's all connected, but as a society we have deemed certain areas, such as national parks, to be places we shouldn't trash. We created landfills for trash.
In general, I think that was a good idea.
If we hadn't, many of our wild areas would've been sold off to the highest bidder long ago, logged out, paved over, dammed, developed, trashed, gentrified, civilized, and gone.
That's why park boundaries matter in today's world.
As to TP down the toilet, that's what wastewater treatment plants are for.

I have yet to visit a state or national park that looked like a landfill- maybe like Disneyland- but not a landfill, not yet anyway. That's good.

At the rate we're trashing this planet, the LEAST we can do is keep a few areas off limits to our nonsense and the by-products (read WASTE) of "civilized" life.

As to the ethics of landfills, pollution, and keeping the rest of the world from going to hell because of our monkey business, I advocate tearing down industrial civilization :)

Alas, I'm done here (gasp)
(Ancient proverb: Never start an internet debate with someone that has more time to waste than you!)

Take care Brian and all.

The water-wash method sounds good if you get used to it. There are a lot of ads for biodegradable TP on the web, e.g., http://www.campingsurvival.com/col4pacofbio.html.

Is it real or just hype? Has anyone seen any specs on how well it works? I'd guess that in a dry climate it doesn't degrade all that fast.

Biodegradable TP can last for years in arid deserts areas. Just to belabor the point a bit more — why even bother with TP of any kind if switching to hand/water wash is actually much more sanitary? Just about the only exception I can think of are places where water is truly scarce.

You see, my point is that I dont see TP as trashing our parks.
Its just some plant fiber mixed in with waste. If every one was considerate no one would ever see a piece of it in the wild and you wouldnt know it was there.
I just think its an extreme view. (But so is tearing down industrial civilization.)
I have no problem with others deciding to go TP-less I just dont get the what the real problem is?
But hey, thats just me.