I did it! 5 lb Base Wt

[EndoftheTrail]

Linda:

Personal Hygiene — Where water is available, washing one's bottom with water is absolutely the best and cleanest way. In contrast, pushing paper around and around never cleans one's bottom completely. Notice how we are always so much cleaner after bathing even if just a sponge or towel bath — versus merely "tissuing" ourselves?

A second way of looking at it — if you consider how absolutely intricate are our water filters — the notion that a few pieces of tissue can somehow form an effective barrier between our hands and our bottoms is a complete figment of our imagination (and cultural tradition)! That's why our parents, school teachers, etc. always harped at us to wash our hands afterwards! TP offers no protection — and the "eeeww" factor of not using TP is really just cultural.

Wash with water, then sanitize our hands, really is the most hygenic. And with just a few practices to get the hang of it, you DON'T need copious quantities of water either!

Environmental Impact The non-usage of TP in the wilds can only be a good thing for our environment. There is no need to use leaves or rocks or to smear stuff around. Just dig a proper hole (6 inches or so) sufficiently faraway from trail / water sources — do our deposit — wash with water — cover hole — and sanitize — and we are done. Nothing to pack in — or out!

This is truly one area where leaving something at home is actually a PLUS! I just wish more hikers can see outside their 'cultural box'.

[EndoftheTrail]

Mike:

I too have been posting ad nauseum against using TP in the wilds. Why carry stuff that actually does a poorer job — and even worse, may need to be packed out?

It's good to meet a fellow evangelist! :)

[Linda Vassallo]

Hi Benjamin,

Any kind of barrier between the hands and bottom will work. And so true, there is no substitute for hand washing/sanitizing after. I can't remember where I read it but there was a recent article about the cause of poor hand hygiene and increased back country illness.

I also am disgusted to find used TP left lying on the ground.

Actually, this is not the first time I have read about this subject (just remembered). I read an interesting and informative book by Cody Lundin "When All Hell Breaks Loose: Stuff You Need To Survive When Disaster Strikes". In this book he also broaches the subject. Whatcha gonna do when your local supplies are gone?
Thanks for the details.

LV

[EndoftheTrail]

Thanks for the details? I haven't even begun to touch on the details!!!

I now yield the pulpit to Brother Mike…

[Richard Gless]

Talk about hijacking a thread!!

Another alternative I've used for years – collect your toilet paper and burn it with the other trash. Of course this assumes you can have a fire at least every few days. A bit gross, but it works. The no TP and water clean up doesn't work for me.

Anyone know of a good biodegradable TP?

[Roman Ryder]

"The no TP and water clean up doesn't work for me."

Yeah…think I'll be sticking to my baby wipes. They're wet, so they do a great job! In fact, they're nice just to clean up down there after a day on the trail.

[Jeremy Greene]

"Wash with water, then sanitize our hands, really is the most hygenic."

There isn't even a need to carry (and risk contaminating) a water bottle when a better cleaning agent can fall 2'.

[Mike Clelland]

I know I sound like a broken record – BUT – You'll be just fine without toilet paper or baby wipes.

I used to carry baby wipes (maybe 6 for a month long course), and I would bring them home after 30 days unused. I learned my needs, and now I take zero.

– ALSO –

the article on this site (I've posted the link a few times above) describes exactly how to wash your butt with soap and water – AND – keep everything clean.

[jeffrey bennett]

Linda awesome job on the list. I am new to light wieght and love seeing were everyone cuts the weight. I just broke out of my comfort zone and started using a bivy.
Mike, I tried your advice on the bivy and liked it .so I am going to trust you again. I am going TP less! Man I hope everything comes out okay.

[Linda Vassallo]

Thanks Jeffrey,

I received excellent advice on how to lower my base wt. I had looked at my original 10 -11 lb list until I was cross-eyed but wasn't able to break the barrier until I posted it. I needed the shove.

Keep us posted on how "everything comes out". I'm going on faith also. This is truly uncharted territory for me.

LV

[Mike Clelland]

Jeffery – Read the article – You'll do fine!

And watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwmwxkD86Ec

peace out lightweight brother.
Mike C!

[Brian UL]

There is just no way I will ever let go of my TP. just the thought of using my hands is unacceptable. If that makes me somehow closed minded so be it. TP is a real luxury of civil life I wont give up. I do sometimes use leaves when the right species is around and I can clearly identify what it is.

[W I S N E R !]

Leave No Trace.

Who packs out ALL their toilet paper?

I suspect that the majority of it is left in the woods- "buried" on the outskirts of high use sites for someone (or something) else to discover later. I've yet to trek with anyone that I've seen pack it out. I stopped using TP because the thought of packing it out, of having a bag of poo in my pack for days or even weeks, is disgusting. And downright weird.
And that's why very few people pack it out.

Imagine this scenario:
Your on a trip, camping in the vicinity of other backpackers. When breaking camp, you notice the group next to you packs all their paper based trash together, walks out to the edge of camp, digs a big hole, and buries it all.
Maybe it's a small bit, maybe it's a lot.
Is this a good practice?

Why is toilet paper different?
Please explain.

[Brian UL]

"Why is toilet paper different?
Please explain."

answer:
"having a bag of poo in my pack for days or even weeks, is disgusting. And downright weird."

[victoria maki]

i agree with brian. using less, i can see, but none at all? for us women, it's a little different ball game, so it say. what does it matter if it's bio-degradable and buried verus using leaves or the like and them being stepped on by a hiker later. yuck…i found a 4oz. (very light, very sqeezable) plastic bottle at target in the travel section. that filled with water and a few sheets of t.p. should solve the problem…for men or women. if you want to carry extra weight, use cottonell wipes. they do break down.

[Blue _]

Craig W. >>"Who packs out ALL their toilet paper? I suspect that the majority of it is left in the woods- "buried" on the outskirts of high use sites for someone (or something) else to discover later. I've yet to trek with anyone that I've seen pack it out."

Unfortunately, I think you are right, Craig, nevertheless there is, at least, a minority who do carry it out. Perhaps for the rest of those who don’t carry out, the question should be: Are we more likely to convince them to carry out a baggy of used TP–or to convince them to give up toilet paper entirely and start using rocks and leaves?

BTW: Linda V., you started a great discussion—in a couple of weeks I was going to start sorting through my own gear trying to reach for a 6-7 pound base weight—but now, there has been so much useful information here that I think it might be fun to see if I can cut all the way down to 5 or fewer pounds (with or w/o toilet paper, who knows).

As far as cultural differences go; Some years ago I had an international student tell me that she was totally disgusted the first time she saw a North American blow his nose into a cloth and then carefully fold it and put it back into his pocket to carry around with him all day :-).

LIBERTAS+PAX PACIS

[John S.]

Personally, I think we should use TP, always pack it out, and do away with cathole digging.

If there is an argument that no TP saves weight, please explain. You have to carry more water to clean the deuce off your finger(s) and carry more hand sanitizer to clean the deuce off your finger(s), more than the typical 1 oz. of carried TP. The surgeon general won't agree with you on your no TP position ; ).

My PhD thesis on this lightitude subject will discuss the following points:
1. My TP is a multiuse item, first used as a typical towel and later used as TP.
2. I don't have to carry/use water for cleaning.
3. I don't have to carry/use extra hand sanitizer for cleaning.

[Mike Clelland]

"The first I ever heard of this was in your toilet paper free article. Is this based on a requirement somewhere?"

Required somewhere? Well, sorta..

I work for NOLS. I go out into the mountains for 30 days with total beginners, a BIG team (up to maybe 14 or so)…

– – – AND – – –

We don't carry toilet paper! None! Zero! Nada!

And, it's just fine. After you do it, nobody even mentions it being an issue. It is ONLY the folks who have NEVER done it that say its somehow "unthinkable" (like, maybe, Linda?)

I'll add that when I see toilet paper in the woods, I CLEAN IT UP! It's disgusting, but I REFUSE to walk past it.

LINK:
~
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/toilet_paper_free.html

[Mike Clelland]

Joe the backapacker wrote:
=================
"Personally, I think we should use TP, always pack it out, and do away with cathole digging"

My confused reply:
===========
What? I don't understand. Please explain. THe cat hole is for the actual poo-poo, so it can be burried (like a cat would do).

– and –

Nowhere am I recomending using my hands to wipe myself. I advocate the important camping skill of using rocks, leaves snow, and sticks. I still wash my hands after using "natural toilet paper"…

And -Hand washing means soap and water. I use very little soap and a lot of water.

[Mike Clelland]

ALSO:
=====

It seems that people are actually burrying their toilet paper. Folks are admitting it here in the forum.

I am shocked, really?

That is littering. Animals will dig that up and eat it. There is the very real issue of unnesisarily habituating wildlifet to human activities.

If you use toilet paper – YOU MUST CARRY IT OUT. This ain't just me, this is the national park service, the guiding industry, the forset service, the LEAVE NO TRACE ORGANIZATION (etc.).

If you burn it in a fire, burn it down completely.

= = =

(sorry to be such a broken record about this subject, it's just I've see too much un-burried human poo-poo and I've carried out too much of other peoples poilet paper.)

[victoria maki]

sorry mike. i'm confused..please correct me if i'm wrong. are you saying that using rocks,leaves,snow, and sticks would not endanger wild life, but they will dig up tp and eat it? i personally wouldn't leave my tp on the trail, but i wouldn't want to step on a rock,leave,snow or stick with, as you say, poo poo on it,either.

[Scott McClure]

I am an old Boy Scout from WAY back and am currently a Scoutmaster. In my old Boy Scout Handbook, it shows how to dig a latrine and to lash up a bench for it (with TP holder) and the current handbook talks about the usefulness of a small trowel to dig a cathole. The BSA is one of (if not the biggest) advocates of "Leave No Trace" that I know of.
I will use leaves if I have no TP, but I have actually seen cases of people getting rashes from using the wrong kinds of leaves for this (I never have). The TP I do carry is a highly biodegradable type that breaks down quickly. To check and see how biodegradable your TP is, place a sheet in a bowl of water and see how long it takes to breakdown. All TP is not created equal.

[EndoftheTrail]

Joe:

Not necessarily true about the increase weight of water. I do my business either in the early hours — or late. The water I use is what I collect for camp use at the end of the day — so it isn't anything that I would haul along the trail all day.

Sanitizer weighs next to nothing — and in any case you only use a few drops each time. The use of TP is itself a cultural trait that provides little advantage to hygiene. This is why mom ALWAYS said to wash your hands afterwards. And in the wilds, that means using either sanitizer or water.

[EndoftheTrail]

Scott:

The use of TP itself is simply a cultural trait. It's effect on personal hygiene is dubious at best — which is why mom ALWAYS said to wash your hands afterwards!

I think it is entirely IDIOTIC to scrounge around for leaves or rocks or whatever — risking rashes at all — when all it takes is to wash with hand and water — like billions of people still do everyday around the world!

Truth be told, there are many, many people who think — rightly so — that smearing our bottoms around and around with pieces of paper is GROSS. Rightly so because it simply doesn't clean completely — as we all know how much cleaner that part of our body is after a shower or bath.

[Blue _]

Victoria>> "i personally wouldn't leave my tp on the trail, but i wouldn't want to step on a rock,leave,snow or stick with, as you say, poo poo on it, either."

This is getting kind o' personal–but I've always just dropped the leaves (or whatever) in the cat-hole with the rest of the stuff–maybe I need to review the procedure. Animals do dig up buried things of all kinds, however–and once the buried TP is uncovered it is freeeeee . . . . !

In the backcountry I find leaving ANY trace of my transitory presence behind to be socially inconsiderate. I am planning to take a young nephew of mine backpacking next summer–I'll tell him to pretend he's in enemy territory, if the enemy find any trace of his presence they'll send out the commando bears to track him down and eat him :-p. As for whether or not he wants to use toilet paper, I don't care, but if he brings it in he will know to bring it out.

BTW: Animals love tampons and pads, too–once I found a shredded tampon dangling from a branch beside a trail–shreds of the toilet paper it been wrapped confettied the area round about . . . sigh.

LIBERTAS+PAX PACIS

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