Cuben Fiber Fragile- Huh?

There seem to have been several stories of unexpected ripping of the GG spinnshelter in the past huh?

In packs, I don't know if you can get a pack made in spinnaker? Is the GG G6 whisper sold anymore?

From SMD website about refuge x:
"Due to the unique nature of the materials in used in the construction of the Refuge X, we offer no warranty on fabric failure. We will gladly fix any seam that fails due to manufacturing defect. These defects include seam failure do to improper construction or thread. There is no warranty for seams that fail due to fabric failure. We highly recommend you thoroughly understand the nature this product and how to properly incorporate it into your outdoor adventures."

From Gossamer Gear website:
"We warranty products we sell to be free from manufacturing defects. GOSSAMER GEAR DOES NOT WARRANTY PRODUCTS AGAINST MATERIALS OR FABRIC FAILURE DUE TO DURABILITY ISSUES. If you are unwilling to accept the limitations of the lighter materials used in our products, do not purchase them, or return them upon receipt in accordance with our return policy. Please note that due to use of extremely lightweight materials, the G5 and Whisper packs are sold with NO WARRANTY."

From BPL website:
"BACKPACKING LIGHT DOES NOT WARRANTY OR HONOR RETURNS FOR FABRIC OR MATERIALS FAILURE DUE TO DURABILITY ISSUES. We are happy to return items that are defective or fail due to a manufacturing / assembly defect. If you do not understand the durability limitations of the fabrics used in the items we sell, please do not buy the products."

BPL says this regarding a tarp:
"Ripping due to fabric failure indicated that the tarp was being used in a manner that exceeded its intended limits."

I'm definitely one of those people.

To be honest, my opinion is based on nothing concrete- I've simply heard people and manufacturers talk about how you must take "care" with lightweight fabrics. I have used plenty of 1.1 oz+ Silnylon and experience tells me it's tough enough that I don't have to worry about it. I don't feel like spending a few hundred bucks to find out I haven't used enough "care" with a lighter product.

My feelings may be totally unfounded (that seems to be what you might be getting at…), but I'd rather carry extra weight and not have to wonder if my gear will hold up. I guess it's about experience…and I don't want to spend the money to get experienced with cuben and spinnaker shelters.

Even if durability is equal, I can get a base weight of 9-12 pounds (which is light enough to do everything I want to do) without using cuben or spinnaker. Why should I spend the extra $$$ over a couple ounces and end up with a closet full of unused gear that's just a few ounces too heavy?

****If anyone wants to donate some cuben/spinnaker gear to help prove me wrong, let me know!!!

I have a Z-Pack Blast 32 (my favorite pack), which is made with a heavier Cuben fiber than the tent people are using, or than Z-pack uses in its own stuffsacks. My perception is that the thicker Cuben is way tough enough for a backpack, at least as tough as silnylon; it doesn't seem as stretchy, either. But of course I haven't tried to poke a hole in it. I've had the pack out in snow and scrambling up talus and scree, and it seemed bomber.

I definitely have the perception that Cuben and Spinnaker are both very fragile and require special care to use. However, I don't think their fragility is unacceptable.

In my decision to buy a new shelter (which I haven't done yet) I wanted to go straight to spinnaker because of the fact that it doesn't sag/stretch like silnylon. At first I thought I was being crazy because spinnaker was too fragile, but people on the forum told me it isn't as bad as one would think. Some people chimed in that it was very fragile, even being able to slice it with a fingernail, but overall I think my perception has changed. I am now looking at a spinnaker tarp/tarptent and my only concern is what I've been hearing about it's waterproofness, not how fragile it is.

My original perception of how fragile it was was based on the fact that manufacturers had statements about how fragile it was and certain members also had statements as to how fragile it was. With research and more thought I decided both the fabrics would be tough enough for a shelter.

Ron,
I think it's still at the point where this fabric is simply not vetted by the outdoor community yet. Most consumers simply don't have 1st hand experience with it and must rely on the limited number of reviews, which, imo, is not going to be the most accurate depiction since consumer reviews tend to be polarized one way or the other. On the other hand, silnylon has been around for many years now, and people without first hand experience of it can simply go to the local REI and take a look at some of the silnylon stuffsacks and pack liners to try to visualize a shelter made of the same fabric.

This is why I'd highly recommend making fabric samples available to the general public for all your lightweight fabrics. Even if you have to charge a few $$s to cover shipping and even materials, I think for a lot of people, the simple act of holding a small piece of cuben fiber in their hands will be enough to either help them realize that their preconceived conceptions of it as a fragile fabric weren't justified, or it will make them that much more confident to buy the same shelter in silnylon.

Ron,

Weight notwithstanding, what do you think is the superior fabric for our needs? Sinylon vs. Cuben?

This is the basic dilemma for me since the weight savings between Sinylon and Cuben can be, somewhat, negligible for one, single piece of gear. Factor in the large cost differential, and it's an easy decision for me not to purchase a Cuben shelter at this time.

That is from a purchase perspective. As for performance, I think the other replies have summed it up nicely and all made very good points.

Personally, I have no judgment on the performance of Cuben — the price alone is enough to keep me from doing further research.

Gotta second that. I've been bushwacking around with my Blast 26 through a lot of ridgeline spruce lately and am very happy with the performance of the fabric to the point I don't think twice about plunging into a thicket.

Of course, having said that, disaster will now strike.

Ron, if I could, I'd make a shelter out of saran wrap :) Cuben is our friend, treat is nicely and it will treat you the same.

Ron, Thank you for offering your shelters in all of the top fabrics in today's modern world. Sil, while it has drawbacks is cheap. Spinnaker, lighter but more pricey. Cuben, well its for people that date hot chicks and drink great beer.
I dont think, outside of dragging your tent thru a scree slope – you have anything to worry about regarding Spinnaker or Cuben. And its not that they are lighter… even if either one were a few ounces heavier than Sil I would still pay the penalty for NOT having to sleep in a sagging, useless mess of a tent. My $0.02

I'm married and alergic to beer but I do own both cuben and spinnaker shelters/tarps from MLD.

To answer Rons inquiry, my understanding, correct or not, was that both spinntex and spectralite fabrics required greater care when compared to silnylon. I likely take better care then necessary with all my gear but at least I can get a good price for it when I sell an item used.

I have used a MLD grace solo spectralite and I am very satisfied with the durability of cuben fiber in shelter applications. I used my tarp for a two week trip on the colorado trail this summer and had no problems with it. Every night I set it up and tightened it up with the line-locs and it was set. I loved the fact that I could set up the tarp tight as a drum and it would stay that way over night. I was very impressed with cuben as a shelter material. If cost was not an issue I would always use cuben over silnylon for a tarp because it does not stretch and is 100% waterproof in all conditions.

To directly address Ron's question, I'm one that looks at the benefit to cost ration and stick with silnylon.

On a side note, I see a lot a commentary here about sag. This can be pretty much cured by using these automatic line tensioners – Dipsy Diver Snubbers. A few weigh 1 oz total. I supose they would keep a spinaker fabris quiet as well. Jack-R-Better sells a line tensioner, too, but I haven't used theirs.

The Jacks R Better line tensioners do help with my silnylon hammock tarp. I haven't really tried them with a ground tarp using trekking poles in it's setup. I never have heard of Dipsy Divers. I'll have to check those out, the next time I visit the Bass Pro Shops' world headquarters.

As someone who has just returned from a trip where the side guy-out point on our Refuge-X failed, I am now officially concerned with the durability of THIS tent. I am not convinced that the fabric was entirely at fault, as from day one these guy-outs looked like a weak link in the tent design. They are placed so that all the force is delivered to just one sewn edge of the fabric instead of distributing the load evenly over the reinforcement, and it was this edge that blew out (in strong but not excessively strong winds). As I was already concerned with these points, I had reinforced them with three extra coats of McNett Seam Seal, but even this was not enough. I will do my best to repair it, and reinforce the other guy-out as well, but I am disappointed that the fabric/design failed so early in my ownership of the Refuge-X. I will like to sell the repaired tent as I can no longer trust it in anything but calm weather, but the fact that I've reviewed it here, and it has been patched, means I will not get much more than the value of the fabric alone. I might as well keep it and chop it up to make other bits of gear. :( I am deeply saddened as this was in all other respects an ideal tent (once bathtub floors were added).

nm

Hi Allison

Not so fast with the selling. Now you know where the weak point is, consider carefully reinforcing it so it can take the load. Remember that my silnylon winter tent took 100 kph winds recently – but that was due to very careful design of the reinforcing to spread the load.

> all the force is delivered to just one sewn edge of the fabric instead of distributing the load evenly over the reinforcement,
Yep, bad design of the reinforcing.

> I had reinforced them with three extra coats of McNett Seam Seal,
No, that won't really add much strength to the fabric. It will seal it, but that's all.

If you want to email me a photo of the damaged area maybe I can help design a suitable reinforcement. Alternately, maybe the manufacturer would repair it suitably?

Cheers

As an ex-structural engineer I can tell you this – at university I was told that most structures failed at connections. And connections are the most overlooked part of the design as they don’t yell out at you – “look at me, I am the potential failure point”.

I have had had good experiences with spinnaker. Used a spinnshelter for several years in fairly nasty conditions. Last year used a MLD Superfly to good effect. I am fairly careful with my shelters, but they have good real use including tripping over the spinnshelter's guylines a number of times until I replaced the original 100% spectra guys with triptease.

–Mark

> If you want to email me a photo of the damaged area maybe I can help design a suitable reinforcement. Alternately, maybe the manufacturer would repair it suitably

Hi Roger, Allison. If you come up with a good way of reinforcing guy out points then please post some pics here of your solution. I don't have a cuben tent, but I'm always interested in hearing ways to make attachment points stronger. It always seems to me that these are weakest link in the chain, and the most likely point of failure. The best solutions are obviously done at the tent design stage, but I'm sure there are some good techniques that can be used on any tent.

Take some of each fabric and try tearing it.

The lightest white spinnaker with the large ripstop squares tears easy.

The heavier colored spinnaker with smaller squares tears
if you start it with a small cut on the edge.

Silnylon, with a small cut on the edge and using your teeth
to hold it, will tear.(In other words is a bit more difficult
to tear than the heavier versions of spinn).

Cubin fiber-the .6 oz variety, won't tear, even with a
cut to start it- and it is even hard to cut it to begin with-(I don't know about those with piano
fingers out there tho).

Another characteristic of silnylon is that the stretch
transfers the load more than the heavily calandered
spinnakers and will be less likely to blow a tie out
point.

I believe SeamGrip or Aquaseal does help reinforce the stitching on
Cuben Fiber a bit and you could even glue on a reinforce
ment patch with it, followed by a bit of judicious sewing
to a spot that looks suspect.

Any of these fabrics will work, providing the design and
set up of are thought through.

Even 210 denier nylon tarp tie out can fail if you use a truckers
hitch and 3 people to tighten it. (Ask me how I know).

Thanks for that Roger. Sounds like sorting this out could help a lot of people moving into tent design, or redesign as the case may be. Postage makes returning for repair prohibitive, but I haven't actually talked to Ron about it yet. He may have some suggestions. I actually used Seam GRIP not Seam SEAL (I always get the names confused). This fact may also affect my repair and reinforcement as my sewing machine won't go through Seam Grip.

I have to say that the fabric itself seems a lot more tear resistant than spinnaker or silnylon, until you start making perforations in it, as when sewing a seam. Add to that the side guy-outs pull at 90 degrees to the stitching (when the canopy is raised with sticks), and you have a serious weak spot. The fabric really is 100% waterproof (at least when new), and really truly does not sag when wet. So it has a lot of Plus sides to it.

I'll post photos tomorrow for Roger's perusal.

>Everyone knows there are many many styles and weights of Cuben Fiber that have been used by various gear companies (past and present) and DYI'ers and that construction methods need to be different, right?

In answer to Ron's question, YES! Construction methods should be different. I have had no issues with my MLD poncho thus far, but (touch wood) I have avoided precipitation for the recent trips that I have been carrying, so have not used it except as an awning to the Refuge-X. I notice the poncho is made from heavier fabric than the Refuge-X, and in-use (as a poncho) I don't anticipate much stress on the attachments points, so the poncho should be a good model of how 'tough' the fabric is…once it rains.

Ron, I think there are two things going on here. One is the assumption that Cuben Fiber is fragile. This is based on weight. Generally speaking, the lighter the fabric, the more fragile it is. Of course, this isn't true all the time, but this is the general perception (even amongst the ultralight crowd, who ought to know better).

The other public relations problem that Cuben Fiber has is based on its cost. It's not that folks think that Cuben Fiber is more fragile, it's just that they know if they rip it, it will cost them a lot more. Unfortunately, the cost contributes to the overall lack of experience with the material, which perpetuates the misconception. If silnylon was really expensive, I think folks would assume that it is very fragile, too.

All that being said, there are folks out there who are willing to pay extra for well made gear that is really, really light. So far as I know, the Refuge X is the only integrated tarp-tent out there (not counting the fine bug-bivy/tarp combos you make) and the product was sold out very quickly. If other people made similar products, then I think they would sell very quickly as well. I would really like to buy a Contrail or a Squall 2 in Cuben (I have nothing against the Refuge, I just prefer the front entry style).

My perception is that Cuben is not puncture or abrasion resistent enough to be used in any practical waterproof gear that could see abrasion or puncture possibilities. My understanding of why this is, is because it uses a laminate film as filler while the spectra grid provides the strength. The laminate, i imagine as being similar, albeit superior in quality to space blankets. I think the weight at which cuben laminates would have the abrasion and puncture resistance to meet the needs of a dependable backpacking shelter or would weigh about the same as the light spinnaker currently used by some(for reference, I don't consider any of the spinnakers widely used to be strong enough for a dependable shelter, or any pack unless one is very careful). The tear strength would be far superior to anything which would be great for high winds, but I would still question whether i could roll up my Ti stakes with it.
For my gear, 1.35 silnylon is the weakest I would want to go for many components and has a great combination of tear strength, abrasion, and puncture resistance. It just so happens to be cheap too. Now if I could just find a polyester of similar strength, weight, and a tad more waterproofness…Hope this helps