Justify Alcohol Stove Total Weight?

>Secrets: close windshield, good shelter, wide pot, lid on pot ALL the time, run at no more than medium power. High power is inherently wasteful.

What kind of close windshield do you use? With the top stoves, I have an inate fear of overheating them. With a remote canister I actually use a Caldera Cone nad get to down to around 15g per litre, but we really only carry this for wintry trips.

It's true we are always in a hurry and turn the throttle up to full, but when you are boiling as much water as us, this seems justified!

>Use your near-empty canisters on day trips and one-night trips maybe? I manage to clean them all up this way.

We don't tend to brew on one day trips (actually carry a thermos sometimes). Overnight trips-yes- but usually still need enough for all of the above, ie afternoon tea and dinner on the first day, breakfast on the second. I'm not actually complaining about it, merely stating that 30g of fuel per day would be miserable rations for our spoiled hiking style. We are not true hard-core ULers!

The cost of canisters when you use them like us is also a consideration. We would get maybe 2.5 to 3 days out of a canister over the course of a single trip, but on shorter trips (say three days and two nights) we will be left with ~40-60 grams of fuel, which often relegates the cansiter to the closet. At $8 each, this works out to $4 per day, compared to alcohol @ $4 per litre. A litre lasts a lot longer than 2 days…

>our "cups" of tea and soup are more in the 400ml per person category

My partner is from Yorkshire. All the family agrees it's essential to have as many *mugs* of tea as possible in a day. They really call them mugs!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/YORKSHIRE-TEA-MUG_W0QQitemZ170270446283QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20081011?IMSfp=TL081011232005r21171

With that kind philosophy I am resigned to carrying lots of fuel.

Hi Allison

> What kind of close windshield do you use? With the top stoves, I have an inate fear of overheating them.
I normally use a simple Trail Designs windshield coming up to just under the top of the pot, and spaced about 20 mm out from the pot. But anything similar would do.

Read: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/exploding_gas_canisters_the_hazard_of_overheating.html
for tech info on this, but the bottom line is very simple: make sure the canister never gets too hot to touch and you will be OK. Ignore the hysterics from some stove manufacturers.

> It's true we are always in a hurry and turn the throttle up to full,
There's your fuel consumption. Try running it at a slightly lower level?
Or maybe try a heat exchanger stove on longer trips like the Primus EtaPower or even, dare I say it, a Jetboil Helios (which is actually 90% the same thing). Both of these will work great in the snow.

> We don't tend to brew on one day trips
What??? Sue's favourite time of day, morning tea! Even in the snow! Gasp, shock, horror!

> The cost of canisters when you use them like us is also a consideration.
Understood, but … How much do you pay for petrol to get from home to the start of the tramp?

Cheers

One way that I use up some of my partially used canisters is by using them on canister lanterns.
About once a year I go car-camping with my partner and I take along a box with all the partially used canisters left over from all my bushwalking trips. I screw them onto the little lanterns and they provide great lighting for around camp. My little lantern is surprisingly bright and pretty miserly on its gas use.

There are heaps of brands of lanterns. I have a Kovea.
Another good brand is Snow Peak.

> What kind of close windshield do you use?

build a windscreen that covers just the burner head and spares the canister and also the jet holes so oxygen is drawn in. I usually make them out of a thin aluminum pie pan of the appropriate diameter to fit the pot, the thing is so light it's very easy to hold it in place. There's also been comments here in the past about building them out of a lightweight bowl.

I also second the comment about not actually boiling the water, safe time and fuel by just getting it hot enough. In the summer and together with using low throttle and a sheltered location if windy I usually spend 5-7 gr. of fuel to adequately heat 400 ml. I've got as much as 42 turns for a 8 oz canister on a Coleman F1 UL burner.

>Or maybe try a heat exchanger stove on longer trips like the Primus EtaPower or even, dare I say it, a Jetboil Helios (which is actually 90% the same thing). Both of these will work great in the snow.

Yeah, I've worked out that a heat exchanger becomes weight efficient around day six for us cooking for two per day.

> We don't tend to brew on one day trips
What??? Sue's favourite time of day, morning tea! Even in the snow! Gasp, shock, horror!

THAT'S what the thermos is for!!!!

> The cost of canisters when you use them like us is also a consideration.
Understood, but … How much do you pay for petrol to get from home to the start of the tramp?

My comment was more in reference to the original spirit of the question "why alcohol may be preferable to canisters". Although not a weight issue, it is another thing one could put into the equation. How to use less fuel getting to the start of your trip could make a nice topic for the Philosophy forum ;)

>build a windscreen that covers just the burner head and spares the canister and also the jet holes so oxygen is drawn in.

We have one of these (the stock one that comes with the SnowPeak) and that is what we get 22g per litre with. I haven't tried it without to see how much difference it makes, but compared to my Caldera cone + WindPro trials (15g per litre), the "pan-style" windscreen is not very efficient…However, like the heat exchanger, the Windpro + Caldera efficiency is considerably offset by it's extra weight. Not practical for shorter trips.

>I also second the comment about not actually boiling the water

It depends on what you are cooking (not everyone eats instant freeze-dried foods), and how hot you like your drinks. I love the feeling I get from scalding my tongue on a freshly boiled cuppa (I'm doing so at the moment)! Some people even go stove-less. Cold breakfasts, tepid tea etc…are all a matter of personal preference.

> Yeah, I've worked out that a heat exchanger becomes weight efficient around day six for us cooking for two per day.
Those are large pots. You could cook for four with them.

Cheers

>Those are large pots. You could cook for four with them.

??? My calculations are based on the MSR heat exchanger for their 2 litre pot. I haven't looked at the integrated systems as we don't do enough 6+ days to justify buying into yet another stove system. Which one is big enough for four hungry bellies??

> We have one of these (the stock one that comes with the SnowPeak)

if that's the shallow one I've seen pics of, you can get much better. Some good ideas and pics:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/9505/index.html?skip_to_post=82370#82370

> It depends on what you are cooking (not everyone eats instant freeze-dried foods), and how hot you like your drinks

with my comment I meant really hot water, enough for cooking non-instant stuff but you still don't need a full, rolling boil. As soon as there's some steam and a few bubbles, that's enough.

Hi Allison

The Jetboil pot is 2.0 L; the Primus EtaPower pot is labelled 2.1 L.
I would have said either pot could feed 4 people, although you would of course need to be a shade careful stirring the full pot. But the stove bases are actually very stable – a LOT more stable than any upright.

Cheers

Here's my SnowPeak Ti Bowl Windscreen. Weighs 1.65 ounces. It fits pots up to 3.75" diameter (BPL Firelite SUL-1100).

Thanks for the pic Dennis. I fear I don't have the skills or tools to work metal like that, but I could do something in aluminium. It looks like one more bulky item to pack though, so probably not necessary for most of our shorter trips.

Roger-a 2L pot is, for us, a two person pot and we get stressed if we have to cater for three. rmemeber that 1200ml for dinner? That's 1200ml PLUS the food that will absorb all that water.

It;s really a moot point now anyway, as we either take the WindPro plus Caldera for serious cold and windy weather, or the Caldera cone and solid fuel the rest of the time. Never did get used to the instability of the top-loading canister systems.

> That's 1200ml PLUS the food that will absorb all that water.
Er… wow! We have about 350 mL of soup followed by maybe 400 mL of stew… each.

Hum – but you don't have soup before stew? Maybe that's the difference?

Cheers

>Hum – but you don't have soup before stew? Maybe that's the difference?

You are just being polite and trying not to call us pigs. We almost always have soup as soon as we arrive at camp. That's really ~350ml for tea, and 450ml for soup. I put the water on to heat while we set up camp. I freely admit we eat more than most folks I know when it comes to hiking. We are not really UL at all (finally I am fingered as an imposter).

1000ml coffee + tea
800ml porridge
800ml afternoon tea +soup
1200ml dinner

OINK OINK

Ah – but you should have seen how much French bread and Brie cheese we got through each day in France!

Food input => walking output.

cheers

Here's the regular formula for Day 1:

D = f + v

Average:

A = f + (v/2)

Here's a better way:

BetterD = D / H

BetterA = A / H

f = fixed (weight of all cooking hardware involved [burner + pot + etc.])
v = variable (weight of carried fuel [daily use times number of days])
H = happiness (anything you want it to be)

Conclusion:

Assuming you've made a choice that works well for you, your weather and your geography, the more happiness you get from your chosen cooking hardware and applicable fuel, the less weight matters within a relevant range of light choices.

Lighter D or A is not necessarily the best choice after you factor in H.

Here's an example,

Choice Y: ' 5 oz / 10' = .5
Choice Z: '10 oz / 100' = .1

If you are 10 times happier carrying Z that weighs twice as much as Y, then Z wins.

Sorry to divert from the subject matter here- Mathematical analysis of subjective happiness is just fascinating.

Anyhow I posted here on BPL about my plans for a JMT hike last summer. I ended up buying and using a Jetboil PCS. I did some testing in advance of the trip and found that 6 to 7 grams of fuel would bring 24oz/700ml of water to a full boil at sea level from 32F/0C (ice water). Simmering for 15 minutes took about 4 grams. This was in still, room temperature air.

For the trip I generally boiled about 6 to 8 cups of water each day (2-3 cups morning for oatmeal and choffee; 3 cups afternoon for dinner & soup; 0-2 cups evening for tea/chai/cocoa). Plus I steam baked a muffin each day by simmering a small amount of water for 15 minutes. The first half of the trip I don't have perfect data- town meals two evenings plus discarding a partially used can.

For the final 6 nights I used exactly one full 110 gram MSR IsoPro can of fuel. The fuel can ran out just as three cups of water were coming to a simmer at 13,500 feet on Mt. Whitney. Dividing 110 by 6 gives 18.3 grams per day which is almost exactly what I calculated for boiling 6 cups and simmering for 15 minutes. The high altitude and breezes never seemed to affect stove performance. I estimate the average cooking altitude at about 11,000 feet. Although this means lower boiling point, every stove I've used in the past seemed to suffer at altitude.

I found this amount of hot food and beverage very pleasant and the Jetboil made it very convenient. I typically stopped for a hot meal or drink three times during each hiking day and the Jetboil made this process quite simple. Although the steam baked muffins were tasty and fun to share, they were a bit of a hassle- I probably won't do them again.

Back to the efficiency issue-
A good alcohol system (such as Caldera Cone) would probably have saved me initial weight and would definitely have saved average weight. Jetboil and an empty fuel can are about 19 ounces. There are many much lighter canister systems, but I doubt that any would be as easy to use on a breezy pass.

Ease of pulling the stove out of my pack, firing it up, and packing it back away was just amazing. Although I agree that a few minutes time difference doesn't really matter while on a hike, knowing myself I'll say I wouldn't have stopped for a cuppa with a more complicated system.

So throw that back into the above subjective happiness formula and I imagine the Jetboil comes out ahead- for me on that hike.

PS-The Jetboil does suffer a bit from wind. I picked up the parts for an adjustable windscreen this morning. For Jetboil PCS owners picture a 4" piece of auto hose clamp strapping and you will figure it out. Report to follow!

I'm a big believer in education and keeping an open mind, stimulating discussions… and I'd just like to say that, yes, I can justify alcohol stove total weight. Since my original post I've continued to look at alcohol stoves, albeit more closely. Trail Designs Caldera Cone/Ti Tri really impress me from the feedback I've seen; I also sorted through some articles here, such as Will's multi-part on fuel efficiency. I also don't really like canister stoves, but wanted a lighter carry option.

Bottom line, Will found that when boiling 2 pints a day the alcohol stove was the lightest option up to 11 days (excluding Esbit). Boiling 4 pints, the top-mount canister was lighter by less than an ounce a week out. Thanks, BPL community! You've made an alky convert! (Now I've gotta go find some Everclear…)

Cut out the soda can alcohol stove in the Caldera Cone system and instead MYOG out of a small cat food can as described on Andrew Skurka's website and you can go lighter. If you don't mind a little inefficiency, you can then use the cat food can alone, drop the Caldera Cone completely, and use an inexpensive and lightweight windscreen instead which lessens the weight of everything because the cat food can serves as a pot stand too in Skurka's design.

James,

Andy's cat can stove is wonderful ( I have made several and used them many times ) but it is not nearly as efficient at a Caldera Cone system. That "little inefficiency" can add up. Andy states that his stove can boil 1.5 cups of water on 0.6 fl oz of fuel which translates to about 0.8 fl oz of fuel for 2 cups. The Caldera Cone systems I have used can boil 2 cups of 60 F on 0.5 fl oz. of fuel. So with the CC one can get 6 cups of hot water for less fuel than it takes to boil 4 cups with the cat can. Over the course of several days the one ounce of wt you save by using the cat can system will be lost in by having to carry extra fuel.

However, you can't beat the price of the cat can stove and frankly the difference in total wt for fuel and stove system may not be worth the cost to everyone. They are both great systems.

-Mark