Justify Alcohol Stove Total Weight?

I measured a 110 gram as slightly heavier than your measurements but strictly considering weight your evaluations are correct. On longer trips a canister system would be lighter. The lightest on longer trips would probably be a bush buddy or some wood burning alternative assuming you know wood is available and there isn't a burning ban where you'll be.

Six cups of water a day is four and a half cups more than I boil.

To answer to your question, alcohol stoves became in vogue because of AT thru hikers. Thru hikers who can re-supply every 4-5 days on average will find alcohol stoves lighter than canister stoves and white gas stoves, due to the fact that you only have to carry the minimum fuel needed for that time. Thru hikers might also find that they can acquire burnable alcohol much more easily than they can acquire white gas or butane canisters (i.e. you can get it from gas stations, you don't have to find a specialty store for a certain type of canister–also, alcohol tends to be the cheaper option).

Getting back to the 6 cups a day, I do think that this is above average for alcohol stove users. I boil 1.5 cups a day because I only cook 1 meal per day, which is either dinner or breakfast depending on how I feel, and 1.5 cups is all it takes (sometimes I use even less water). Even if I cooked two meals a day every day, I'd still be boiling half as much water than you, and consequentially using half as much fuel. However, you are absolutely right. Since alcohol burns at a lower temperature than white gas and canister stoves, alcohol stove systems are only the lightest option for short amounts of time–again, that could mean weekenders where you're boiling 6 cups a day, it could mean 4-5 day sections where you're boiling water for 1-2 small meals per day, or it could mean thru hiking where you are re-supplying every 4-5 days.

I justify things other than weight. It's easy to get fuel during town stops. There are no parts to break. I can choose how much fuel to bring (unlike with canisters). I can also refill the fuel bottle when it gets half empty.

I also boil 2-3 cups a day, so on an 8 day resupply period, it works out great with my Whitebox stove.

Lots of studies have been done that show for longer hikes without resupply the canister stove becomes more efficient. The catch might be those hikes where one canister isn't enough, but only an ounce or two would be used from the second.

I've even seen weekend hikers carry two canisters because they don't know how much fuel is left in the first. Of course, I don't think that applies to the gram weenies around here who know how to weigh their fuel.

Hi Brad

Your maths is right. The weight efficiency of alcohol is very poor compared to that of butane. OK for a weekend.

Cheers

Pamela,
Total stove weight and fuel choice is a matter of total system – including the length of the hike and duration, remoteness, the environment, etc. On AT thruhikes, I have always ended up using alcohol because resupply periods are usually shorter than 7 days and alcohol is easily found. My total daily average weight analysis gave alcohol the edge for 6 nights out, traveling solo.

Everyone ends up with their own favorite system as they gain experience. It is better to avoid blue-sky theorizing. Just try new things out. Of course, if you take out a second mortgage on a stove system, you will feel tied to it. And it is human nature to think the inevitable is somehow good.

Don't lose sleep over the choice of fuel. If the options weren't all pretty good, there would be no debate.

Hey, all-

I'd been reading and considering all your input; just realized that I never responded to it or thanked you.

I know 6 cups seems like a lot of water to some. I boil 1.5 cups for oatmeal and dried fruit, 2+ cups for morning coffee. Dinner is 2 more cups. It's hard for me to choke down cold meals, especially since most of my trips are shoulder season.

Glad to know I'm not crazy and the math works out. I'm not a thru-hiker; just do extended trips in wilderness, no chances for resupply at all. Frequently 10 days plus. I understand and appreciate alcohol for frequent resupply trips.

I'm going to give woodstoves a try. Have the stuff to make one, just haven't gotten it done yet. Although you have to figure in some extra weight for, say, a larger blade or some extra fire-starting stuff, still comes out the lightest. Only problem is that it seems I'm frequently out during fire bans… One step at a time, I guess.

Thanks again, everyone!

Brad,
About wood stoves. Do yourself a favor and use the less-is-more approach. An efficient wood stove does not under any circumstance have to be complicated. A suitably sized can (coffee cans are good), a church key and a pair of sturdy kitchen scissors is all you need. Make the stove by removing all metal that you don't need, not adding it. Lots of ventillation at the bottom is good. Leave only as much metal as needed to support the pot. Use the scissors to cut off the tabs left by the church key. Leave the bottom on to catch ash. With a taller can (coffee can) you can just notch the top or hole it with the church key to make an integrated pot support instead of fooling with stakes or other add-on pot supports. If your pot is smaller than the can, then and only then might you need to have separate supports. Four or 5 ounces is a reasonable target. A stove like this is easy to light, holds lots of fuel (less tending), and is as efficient as just about anything else. Sometimes we get too obsessive here.

“Figure 1.5 oz of alcohol per day for one week / 7 days. That's 21 fluid ounces of fuel. Weight conversion of fuel is roughly 21 mass ounces. Add two ounces for stove, pot support, windscreen. You have 23 ounces for an alcohol stove for one week.”

Sorry, I got lost on your math. Please correct me. But this is what I saw: If you use 1.5 fl oz / day* that = 10.5 fluid ounces for 7 days. Times that by 0.8 to get mass = 8.4 mass ounces. Add a 0.5oz container. Now “Add two ounces for stove, pot support, windscreen”. Thus I get ~11oz. This is on par w/ your canister stove for starting out weight and assuming you’re not bringing a half empty canister and thus you have to bring a backup canister. And it assumes you’re not in freezing weather such that you can’t light the last 2 meals.

This also shows for 4 days (of the above example), alcy will always be lighter (and cheaper) vs. canister. And just think how much lighter it would be with no coffee.

-Barry

*p.s. 0.5 fl oz is typical to boil 2c on a decent alcy stove.

Usually I am cooking for two people and I never boil 6 cups of water in a single day.

I am not a thru hiker, mostly a weekend warrior. I have been using a popcan/alcohol stove for the last few years. In warm weather with calm winds I can boil a cup of water in 4 minutes with only a ounce of alcohol. A few summers ago two of us went 5 days with only a 9.5 oz. bottle but I was using a AntiGravity Gear pot cozy. Maybe that is something to check into if you are not satisfied with the amount of fuel a alcohol stove is consuming.

Usually five or six minutes to boil 2 cups of water and then I place the pot in the cozy and leave it there for ten minutes or so. When I remove the pot from the cozy the food is always just as hot as when I placed it in. I probably use at least half as much fuel as I would if without the cozy.

Buy a cozy and redo your test. I would like to see the numbers then.

> When I remove the pot from the cozy the food is always just as hot as when I placed it in.

Ahhh… That would imply that the insulation was perfect, and that there was zero heat loss. This may be a slight exaggeration?

That said, I use my calico hat as a cozy when cooking for 2 people, and the food comes out very hot after 5 – 10 minutes. I sometimes think it is the tight-fitting lid which does most of this though (no steam loss).

Cheers

I also work out the alcohol @ 9 ounces, and we find that canister stoves need wind protection just as much as alcohol stoves (in terms of fuel sonsumption). In other words, even though a canister stove can continue to burn in higer winds without a windscreen, the decrease in fuel efficiency is significant. So it would be only fair to either factor in the weight of a windscreen for the canister stove, or factor in extra fuel in case of high winds.

There are other reasons I often use an alcohol stove, although I wasn't too enamoured of them before I tried a Caldera Cone. With the Caldera, not only is fuel efficiency increased, but the stability and wind protection provided by a Caldera was enough to make me ditch my old Snow Peak Giga. Of course, the base weight of the Caldera is more than 2oz, but I consider it a worthwhile trade off, and very light for weekend trips. I have a closet full of half or 3/4 empty canisters at home due to shorter trips. This not only bugs me from an aesthetic point of view, but is an expensive trail of rubbish that will end up in landfill.

Aside from that, don't sweat the small stuff. Canister stoves are solid, reliable performers and if they are your preference then the weight difference over a week's trip is not worth the angst or cost of buying into another cooking system.

Maybe? So I didn't get the thermometer out and check the temperature before and after the 10 minutes in the cozy. Not trying to mislead anyone here, just saying the pot cozies are the only way to go unless you like cold ramen noodle al dente.

I carry alc and boil approximately the same amount per day. 7 days does take about that much fuel. But I could never get my giga power to boil that same amount of water on one canister – it must be me. On the other hand, though, if I were going for 7 days or longer I carry a small amount of alc depending on the season (rain) and use my bush buddy for the majority of my cooking. The alc is just a wet weather backup. It works for me and saves me a little weight and little worries about running out of fuel.

Allison!

> I have a closet full of half or 3/4 empty canisters at home due to shorter trips.
Weigh them! Deduct known empty weight.
Allow about 30 g of fuel per day for two people. You can easily calculate how many days a canister is good for.
When a canister gets too low in content I relegate it to day walks. 10 g for a cup of morning tea for Sue and me.

> is an expensive trail of rubbish that will end up in landfill.
Er … not while they have gas in them I hope! Illegal and dangerous! (Comment really aimed at other readers who might not realise this.)

Cheers

Hi Joseph

Oh, rest assured, I agree 100% with you about the value of the 'dutch oven' cooking method. Dead right.
I bring our dinner to the boil for about 10 seconds and then cozy it just like you. My wife is not in favour of al dente noodles either.

Cheers

Barry, Allison-

You're absolutely right. My notations were off. Trying to decipher how/why, I think that I saw some web references to about 2/3 to 3/4 oz per 2 cups. I tend to be a bit cynical about fuel consumption figures (yes, for canisters, too). So I think what I did was average 1.5 ounces per meal. Yeah, I know. Doesn't sound too scientific. Only explanation I can come up with off the top of my head, original calcs not in front of me…

Bottom line, I'm not losing any sleep over this. Just enjoy the discussions.

My understanding of wood stoves is that fire bans typically apply to them. Is that how you all understand it?

Oh, and I also do the get it to a boil and let it sit routine. Frankly, I don't normally cozy it, 'cause it's still hot enough when I start eating. If it is cold out, I do fashion something, even if just a space-blanket-ish cozy.

>Weigh them! Deduct known empty weight.

ALWAYS!!!

>Allow about 30 g of fuel per day for two people

Ummm, 4 cups of coffee (2 each) porridge, 2 cups of soup and a very large cup of tea, followed by ~1200mls for dinner and maybe another cup of tea after dinner…a lot more than 30g on our canister stove (and that's if it's not windy)! Thats' for a "social" weekend tramp. Longer trips we do rein in our hot drinks a bit.

>not while they have gas in them I hope! Illegal and dangerous

Heavens no. THAT'S why I have a closet full of almost empty ones.

> I have a closet full of half or 3/4 empty canisters at home due to shorter trips. This not only bugs me from an aesthetic point of view, but is an expensive trail of rubbish that will end up in landfill.

I was under the impression that cannisters can be recycled once they are empty and have been punctured. Here in Australia they recycle our shaving cream cans so I don't see why cannisters would be any different. You should make sure they are empty and then puncture them and squash them flat I think.

Never tried it, so if I'm spreading false info someone better set the record straight….!

According to the folks at backpacker.com, gas cannisters are usually recyclable though it is not commonly known. Best to ring your local council or recycling service and ask:

http://www.backpacker.com/gear/ask_kristin/85
http://www.backpacker.com/february_2008_how_to_recycle_spent_fuel_canisters/gear/12084

Hi Allison

Must be the cold weather in NZ :-)

Our 30 g covers:
500 ml for morning tea (2 cups)
600 ml for evening soup
800 mL for dinner
150 mL for washing up (3 drops of 'green' detergent)
Yeah, a bit less water than you.

Our last snow trip required some snow melting, pushing the daily up to ~45 g for the two of us.

Cheers

>Our 30 g covers:
500 ml for morning tea (2 cups)
600 ml for evening soup
800 mL for dinner
150 mL for washing up

!! What stove are you using? With a Snow Peak Giga we need 28 grams just to boil 5 cups of water in the evening (so ~22g per litre). The MSR Windpro is a bit better at ~22g per 5 cups (18g per litre), but that's inside at "room temperature". In the field we usually require more fuel than this due to wind or colder temps.

Oh yeah, and our "cups" of tea and soup are more in the 400ml per person category, so for us (on an indulgent trip):

1000ml coffee
800ml porridge
800ml afternoon tea/soup
1200ml dinner

At 22g per litre that would need 84 grams fuel per day minimum, but would not leave home without at least 100g per day to ensure enough for wind and cold.

Of course, on a longer trip, we would cut this back substantially to 600ml coffee, 700ml soup/tea and 1200ml dinner, but still at leats 60g fuel per day. So we accumulate a lot of canisters with less than 100g fuel in them, or end up carrying two part full canisters just to use them up. In the second case, the weight of the second canister is part of the equation. In either case, canister fuel is quite a bit more expensive than alcohol.

I get pretty good fuel consumption from my gigapower (not quite as good as Roger, but a lot better than Allison's numbers). I think it's because I don't actually heat the water to "boiling". Just heating the food to a medium simmer temperature cooks the food, and means I only have to wait 1-2 minutes after removing it from the cozy for it to cool enough to not burn the roof of my mouth when I eat. Drinks (hot cocoa) don't even reach simmer temperature – very hot but not too hot to sip.

Hi Allison

What stove? You guessed it – Snow Peak Gigapower GST100 (in the summer). Mostly Coleman Xtreme in winter.

Secrets: close windshield, good shelter, wide pot, lid on pot ALL the time, run at no more than medium power. High power is inherently wasteful.

In fact, your figure of 22 g per Litre is not far off. With a bit of tuning you should be able to improve it a bit. I got down to just over 20 g/day by running the stove very frugally at low/medium power on one trip – by accident I was a bit short on the amount of fuel carried. Oops. :-)

> In the field we usually require more fuel than this due to wind or colder temps.
If you are using more fuel because of wind then you could look at improving your windshield design and management. See what improvements the Caldera Cone gets over a poorly-protected open alky stove for instance: due to management of the air flow.
But I don't really agree with the 'colder temps' claim. OK, so the water is starting at 5 C rather than 15 C: that will increase the amount of fuel used a little, but not a huge amount. Air temperature simply doesn't count.

> our "cups" of tea and soup are more in the 400ml per person category,
Fair enough!. But that is a different matter.

> 1000ml coffee
> 800ml porridge
> 800ml afternoon tea/soup
> 1200ml dinner
Wow! OK, different requirements.
Yes, we drink less and have a cold breakfast (muesli etc), even in the snow. If it was -15 C we might warm the milk slightly. Now you are getting into personal preferences.

Use your near-empty canisters on day trips and one-night trips maybe? I manage to clean them all up this way.

Cheers