ultimate double wall tent

Hi Brad

> Roger, you're the only person I've ever encountered who feels that double-wall tents are just single walls (albeit with "an inner bug net"). The type of tent you refer to as "double-skinned" is what virtually everyone would just call a double-wall winter tent! :O

I think this illustrates a point I was trying to make – that the term 'double wall' means different things to different people. That does breed confusion, as you have seen.

As to being the only person who does that – I am reflecting Australian custom here. (Could be a problem!) Some of the tents you call 'double wall' Australians might call 'single wall with a full net interior'. We are perhaps more used to tents having 100% bug protection – it can be mandatory here if you want to sleep. Terminology …

If YOU want to call a tent with a rainproof fly and a net interior 'double walled', I cannot complain. The term is not rigorously defined. Your suggestion that I change my terminology from 'double-wall tent' to 'double wall winter tent' has some merit.

Cheers

I think Roger makes an important distinction and it is similar to the distinction I made. To a certain extent, you can probably evolve any design into another (just as there is no topological difference between a donut and a teacup) but for practical purposes, there is a difference. A tarp and bug-bivy setup (as nice as it is) provides very little room and very little wind protection. In general, it provides the same minimal wind protection as a single walled tent (even though it doesn't need the ventilation). A "standard" double walled tent, on the other hand, protects against the wind while providing plenty of room and condensation protection.

I mention all this because I believe that no one makes (what I would call) an ultralight, double walled tent. The BS tents come close, but as I said, their use of poles costs them a lot of weight. An ultralight tarp with an ultralight bivy (such as the Serenity NetTent by SixMoons or the Serenity shelter by MLD) are certainly ultralight, but, in my opinion are not quite double walled shelters. I think there is a big market for a nice, double walled shelter (made with cuben as the rain fly, silnylon on the bottom and a combination of silnylon/nanoseeum on the inside tent). Even a standard design (like BS has) with a Cuben Fiber top would be a big seller (in my opinion) since it would have the advantage of being free-standing. It would be expensive, but there are plenty of people who are willing to pay to save weight and still have the advantages of a double-walled tent.

Thank you everyone. You all are great folks.

I am familiar with all these tents. And I should have added that I only need a 3 season tent. Snow is no issue for me, nor night time below about 25, at least intentionally.

I loved the Big Sky until I heard all the stuff about delivery. I agree if there was a reputable dealer who had one in stock I would probably chance it, but then if I ever had a return issue I'd be back in the soup I guess. Too bad.

I have heard some interesting things about the Stephenson company too and for that reason would stay away from their tents.

Ben, you are probably right about the level of concern regarding the Seedhouse SL1 or 2. I am leaning there, but before I pulled the trigger I wanted to be sure I was not missing something obvious.

The Akto is the other one I am seriously considering. given taht I will be mostly in the NC mountains, and mostly in the spring and fall, should I give any thought to whether it would be too muggy in there on a night in the 60's? Same question about the Black Diamond.

Again thank you.

Hi Roger-
It's kind of weird, and kind of neat, that it's so easy to forget that we come from all over the world on this site. I hadn't even considered Australian (or other nationalities) potential differences in nomenclature. I sure know what you mean about the bugs, though. Most of my trampin' about is in areas where I couldn't possibly conceive of a shelter without protection. Anyhoozit…

Hi Brad

Ask Chris Townsend about Scottish midges, or Allison about NZ sandflies …
Shudder!

Hi Roger,

As a fellow Aussie here, are there any commercially available double-wall (by your definition) tents that you would recommend for Australian conditions? Actually, make that Tasmanian conditions (wet, windy, and cold, as I'm sure you know). I'm looking for a lightweight tent suitable for all-year round in Tassie but it's really hard to know what is actually suitable for our conditions.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Stuart

Hi Stuart

> Tasmanian conditions (wet, windy, and cold, as I'm sure you know)
Yep, I know. Weather forecast for today on the Arthurs: 'fine and stormy'. Issued withOUT looking out of the tent.

> I'm looking for a lightweight tent suitable for all-year round in Tassie but it's really hard to know what is actually suitable for our conditions.
No good recommendations.
Yep, that's right. As far as I know, there are no good *lightweight* double skin 2-man 3-pole (winter) tunnel tents available on the market at present.

However, there are some fairly good medium-weight tents available. But I will add a caution: many of these have side-opening doors which let a lot of rain in. I prefer the end-opening door as on the Olympus.

The Macpac Olymus may still be available: hardly light at all!, but very robust. It's a classic. (I had one for many years.)
You should look at some of the European brands like Hilleberg. Tatonka make copies of the Hilleberg tents. – they may be heavier though. They have several possibilities, but watch out for ventilation.
The North Face in Europe has a nice looking Fortress 23 – not available in America.
The Lightwave T1 Ultra seems to look good with nice vestibule space. My new winter tent is a bit like this one. Side door is a drawback.

My new winter tent – 2-man 4-pole double skin etc. Pitched at about 1,800 m in Autumn – there was ice on Jagungal that day.

You can Google, but you will get hordes of Family Tunnels and Kids play tunnels … even a ferret tunnel I think!

Cheers

I've never been to Australia or NZ. I've read that there is a penchant for "bombproof" gear down under — be they tents, packs, clothing, etc. — and the concept of UL is still in its infancy.

Hardcore hikers need proper gear to match. Are most hikers in the land of Oz 'hardcore'? Or are many of them actually sucked in by marketing and traditional tramping culture?

Would like to hear from fellow hikers down under.

Ben
Often Tasmania is left off the map of Australia not just because of esthetics, it's a different planet.
However I don't know what the fuss about the weather is. When I was there it only rained hard (admittedly the wind was strong) in-between drizzles.A friend of mine ( 6 foot something, 200 plus pounds and a Tas sized pack) claims he was lifted off the ground down in the South West Coast. He thought that it was funny (not at the time…)
Looks like Lightwave have finally started production again, they had been out of silnylon for months.
The Olympus is available ( on sale at the Smith St /Collingwood outlet, I forget the price) , however they still don't come with a porter attached.

Stuart keep an eye on this thread, soon someone will post a solution for you.
Franco

Roger – Thanks for that. I've been looking at the Hilleberg range as they do seem a decent bet. Not cheap though, but if it's going to last for years… I'll check out the others you mention too.

I'm currently thinking about a Tarptent Cloudburst 2 as being a good solution for 6-9 months of the year in Tas, as long as I don't take it anywhere too extreme. (I know we can get extreme conditions any time of year, but I'm pretty cautious and keep a very close eye on the weather forecasts.) I know you use a single wall tunnel of your own design for non-winter conditions, do you have any view on the Tarptent Cloudburst and its suitability for Tas?

Franco – always good to see another Aussie on here. I hope somebody does come up with the perfect solution, but I won't be holding my breath.

Cheers,
Stuart

> A friend of mine ( 6 foot something, 200 plus pounds and a Tas sized pack) claims he was lifted off the ground down in the South West Coast.
Yeah. I can remember a group of us lining up on the crest of a ridge on the Western Arthurs and staying upright by leaning into the wind. The required angle of lean was about 45 degrees. We thought it was funny too.

Hi Stuart

> do you have any view on the Tarptent Cloudburst and its suitability for Tas?
Henry Shires' Tarptent are very nice. A leading company in this area. The Cloudburst would be OK in *sheltered* areas. I don't think that includes much of South West Tasmania, unless you are deep in the moss jungle.

The problem is the span between tent poles. The stability of the tent is INVERSELY proportional to some power of this span – maybe the square or the cube. That is why my new winter tent has four poles: it reduces the span. But the Tarp tents have only two supports and a long span in between. In high wind the least that happens is that the low end of the tent collapses right down onto your sleeping bags. OK, the tent survives – but you can get very wet and miserable this way.

Me, I would hesitate to take a single skin tent South West. I have done so long ago, but there were some 'interesting' times. I certainly would NOT bother taking a tent with a netting interior: the weight of the netting would be wasted. Some people take domes and get away with it, although there have been cases where the tent got shredded.

For Americans who don't understand why the fuss, I will explain that there is nothing between SW Tassie and the Antarctic – except for a lot of very rapidly moving and rather cold air. Snow and sleet are quite normal in mid-summer. It's fantastic walking country – for the very experienced.

But this is MY opinion: others will doubtless disagree with me. They should be heard too.

Hi Ben

> I've read that there is a penchant for "bombproof" gear down under
Yeah, for two reasons. One is that the local gear makers have not moved with the time. 12 oz canvas is still the king for some. At least the novices have terouble trashing it.

The other reason – you haven't seen the scrub here, have you? We don't put 1000 denier Cordura on pack bottoms for no reason, and it still wears through. Honest. And check out my MYOG articles on bushwacking clothing.

> Are most hikers in the land of Oz 'hardcore'?
Define hardcore.
We have *very* few walking tracks compared to America. Making tracks in National Parks is strictly discouraged. You just don't do it. So most serious walking is off-track.

Don't be sucked in by the Aussie hardcore bull. It's mostly hype and puffery.

The most hardcore thing about our wilderness are those green pants and bare chest that Roger is sporting in his avatar. ;-)

Compared to other countries this place is a temperate paradise most of the time. It is a big country so it covers a lot of climates and therefore appears to have extremes. It can have a certain harshness and quick weather changes, but overall it has nothing that other countries can offer in terms of 'extreme' weather.

The common image of "bombproof gear" here is simply out of habit, lack of commercial alternatives to buy or lack of flexibility in mindset.

The U/L population is small therefore representation on this site as not indicative. Take it all with a grain of salt.

Roger wrote: "Henry Shires' Tarptent are very nice. A leading company in this area. The Cloudburst would be OK in *sheltered* areas. I don't think that includes much of South West Tasmania, unless you are deep in the moss jungle."

Thanks for that Roger. I kinda thought that'd be the case, but nice to have a more experienced view. Looks like I'll have to save my pennies for a Hilleberg :)

Tasmania is wet in the south west, west and central highlands; dry on the east. It can certainly be very windy and often is, but it is not cold compared with much of the rest of the world. It has a maritime climate, which keeps the temperatures moderate. Minus 7 C (about 20 F) is a cold night in winter.

Ben: our UL situation is pathetic. Our retailers are slow to adapt, and also very expensive. It is best to buy mainly in the US or make gear at home. Bombproof is still the norm.

Stuart: I live in Hobart; phone me re the Cloudburst 2 as I have one. Roger is correct re the strength in wind but I seem to find sheltered enough spots. Could do better though.

I can vouch first hand for the durability of the Hilleberg Nallo2. It is our "winter" tent which may, like in Tas, be any time of year. We used a CloudBurst for several years and were generally very happy with it. As Roger points out, the tent is prone to collapse in severe winds, but always bounces back (ie the poles haven't broken on us yet). So for 3-season, maybe the CloudBurst, but if you want one tent that will handle most conditions you might encounter with not too much weight, then a Nallo2 or 3 (more poles are better). Keep in mind the Nallos are on the short side, and the back wall slopes steeply inwards so that it is easy to touch the wall and wet out the foot of your bag if you're tall or slide down in the night. The CloudBurst has condensation issues. No problem for one person, but for two people the chances of touching the wet side walls is very high, especially if you have strong gusts from the side. We have had both these tents in gales and lived to tell the tale. The Nallo is much, I mean MUCH warmer, which is a bad thing in hot weather. Hard to ventilate unless you pitch it without the fly.

If you want 100% bombproof, then the Olympus (or Minaret) is the best tested and trusted though heavy tents you can find. They are bred for Antarctic storms, the newer ones even have snow flaps.

Wow, so many Aussies — and thank you all for sharing your experiences. Fun reading, and very enlightening too!

Note to self: Gotta visit Down Under!

Clive – that's a very generous offer. I will indeed give you a call to chat about the Cloudburst – thank you.

Allison – That is very useful info on the Cloudburst vs. something like the Nallo. Tassie conditions are a lot like your South Island, especially the Fiordlands, so I really appreciate your input. I hope to get over to NZ to do some (all!) off your "Great Walks" over the next few years. So far, I only seem to get to NZ in winter for skiing (it's a tough life…) but I really want to ge over there in summer for some tramping.

Ben – UL is still somewhat uknown here, although a coworker of mine brought his backpack in to work the other day as he was going from work straight to the start of a 5 day walk. His pack was a Golite Gust :) And it didn't weigh much at all…

Hi Ben,

Check this http://www.bushwalk-tasmania.com forum thread out.

http://bushwalk-tasmania.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=585&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

it is a discussion about UL gear with a Tasmanian flavor, it is very interesting.

Also check the gallery page out it has some stunning photos on it

This thread has some of the best.

http://bushwalk-tasmania.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=844

Tony

Although I havent physically seen or used a cloudburst before, I would hesitate using one in the southwest, especially anywhere in the Arthurs except the most sheltered locations. Which I don't think you can really depend upon making; the weather changes so much and so rapidly you sometimes have to camp where you are.

A good 4 season tent is really required at any time of year. And insect protection is nice too-especially when off the ranges in leach-ville.

The Hillberg Nallo is diabolically fantastic. My father and I just bought a Nallo GT2. OMG I am in love. Every feature is just unbelievable and incredibly well thought out. And the weight for such a tent, with so much room, stength and features, is awesome-I think about 2.3kg tops. This tent will handle anything you can throw at it, in complete comfort. I haven't had a chance to use it myself yet (except in the backyard), but Dad is off doing the Overland Track at the moment (mid winter) with it. Must be doing ok…no police knocking on Mum's door yet! I'm sure he will fill me in on all the details when he gets back.

Allison, you mentioned ventilation/heat issues with your Nallo 2- does yours have the new ventilation zipper on the foot end of the fly at the base? The tent does have some massive ventilation ports aswell on the fly.

I can't wait to use this thing myself.

I've been using the SL1 for over a year now. Bottom line, its a great tent. No tent under 3 lbs is perfect. Plus when you order it, it actually arrives in a prompt manner. No good ordering the perfect tent if it takes 2 years to get it.

Here's the secret: The rain fly door has two velco attachment points in addition to the zipper, use them wisely. When attempting entry during rain reach your handup under the rain fly and unzip the inner mesh door, then unsip the rain fly door but leave the two velcro patches in place. Effectively holding the door in place until you're ready. Then just rip the velcro off, jump in the tent, and the slap the rain fly door back closed with the velcro. Shouldn't get too much water in the tent if you pull it off right.

Now just figure out how did anything besides your boots to fit in the vestibule!

Some walkers on the http://www.bushwalk-tasmania forum like the MacPac Microlite, 1.8 kg, claim that it has held up to what Tasmania has thrown at it winter and summer.

Tony