Refuge X setup and questions

Good questions. I had a similar experience and then decided it was best to have a bit of an angle with the poles (with them pointing in). One of the key things is that there has to be sufficient length on the front and back tie outs to lift the bottom off the ground (there has to be a gap for air flow). When I did that, it seemed like the angle for the poles wasn't as steep.

For stuffing, I decided to fold the Cuben and netting inside, with the silnylon surrounding it. I think this makes the most sense, since the silnylon is tougher. After folding it this way, I just stuffed it (although I don't know if that is the best way to deal with it. In general, I think the netting is much more likely to get damaged than the Cuben. Of course, if the netting gets damaged, it is much cheaper to fix or replace.

I have the GG "The One" which is also cuben fiber. Either rolling or stuffing is just fine. Thinking about it, the absence of any PU coating actually eliminates one major worry of tent storage: delamination.

Still, it's important to make sure that the tent is thoroughly clean and dry before stuffing, folding, or rolling it for storage.

So are you saying that I don't have the tie outs long enough on the front and back? I don't know if you can see in my photos, but with my setup, the bottom isn't really off the ground that much. There is a gap between the tent sides and the ground, but the actual floor is flat on the ground. So you are able to get your pole straighter or are you pointing in about as much as mine?

I have been going out and giving it the once over as the day goes one. I just noticed the actual taping SMD. The tape runs only across the seam at the tent edges near the peak. Looks like some extra tape on one side, I don't know if I should try to deal with it or leave it. Hard to say if this could cause the tape to start coming off. I will get a picture of it, and upload it.

People may think I am being anal about every detail, but I am simply looking for what to expect in such a design. I am not all that familiar with gear of this type, so I am still learning the trade-offs between what I have used in the past. SMD also is not warranting beyond the initial inspection, so I am trying to understand what should and shouldn't be a red flag for me.

The first two photos show the taping from SMD. It is hard to make out but there is some excess tape showing. No problem?

Showing the full taping on this side:

Trying to show how we are holding up with the wind. Hard to show, really need video, it is getting pushed around pretty good, but seems solid enough:

I'm not sure. I found the tent a bit fussy, but I think that is just typical for tarp tents. It probably just takes me a while (I am comfortable with my other tarp tent, but I have had it for years now). To answer your question more directly, I think the instructions recommend about 12" to 18" on the four ends. I think that helps get it off the ground. This picture might help:

http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/products/Refuge/shadow5.jpg

It shows a fair amount of space underneath. This picture shows a bit of an angle for the poles (but it is hard to tell):

http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=58

I just used packing tape to tape the inside of the guy outs on the main body. I'm not sure you need to seal going down the 4 edges. I'm going to try it in the rain first. If I do seal those 4 seams, I'll use a 1" strip of cuben with the 3M tape.
As far as your set-up, it looks like mine did.

Here's a wild thought – instead of asking here, why not just CALL Six Moon Designs and ask Ron? But you'd better be quick; he's leaving for Trail Days tomorrow and will be gone for 2 weeks.

I set top of stakes about 2-inches above adjacent land surface and got a good gap at floor level for airflow (wind was blowing left to right in picture and canopy was not guyed-out, but floor height remained unaffected by wind)
-Ken

Before heading out of town for Trail Days in a few hours I thought I'd add a few comments to this thread. I won't be able to respond to questions for a couple of weeks, if you have them.

Patrick, your setup is correct. To achieve proper pitch, the two poles do lean in slightly. Even with lean, one is still able to get a pretty tight setup that's strong.

After visiting the Cuben Fiber facility a few weeks ago, we decided to make a change to enhance the strength of the top seams. It was suggested that we could use strips of Cuben Fiber and double stick tape to re-enforce the seams.

Back in the shop, we experimented with a number of potential solutions and the homemade cuben tape worked the best. But as noted, the tape is homemade using short strips of Cuben Fiber salvaged from the cut and mated with the double stick transfer tape.

It works and does create a very strong bond. Unfortunately my manual dexterity is somewhat lacking in the tape production department. So the first batch of tape we produced was somewhat lacking in looks but still strong.

Hopefully as time goes on, I'll get better at making the tape or we'll cobble together some sort of device that will aid it's creation.

I've significantly limited the first production run of Refuge X's. The goal is to get them out into a much wider range of conditions and usages than we're able to come up here. So good detailed feedback from early users is critical to us.

I think Cuben Fiber is a remarkable fabric and look forward to a number of projects. Also note, a slight change in the production process will allow us to get fabric that's more smokey gray instead of the translucent white. This will allow us to make the tent more stealthy.

I'll probably explore the use of Cuben in other products over the summer. So who knows what 2009 will bring.

Ron

Ben – isn't "The One" actually spinnaker and not cuben fiber? Also, as someone with no experience with either spinnaker or cuben fiber, do they have similar properties in terms of stretch, lacking a coating, etc.?

Peter,
I hate spinnaker due to its crickley noise and horrible texture.

Cuben on the other hand; Other than having to be delicate with the stitching and being aware so you don't puncture it, Cuben is a lot better than you're making it out o be.

Stronger in tear strength than nylon and no stretch.

Maybe I just don't get what point you are trying to make???

Got a first, if limited, review in (see review section).
Here are some pics – and yes, we got the first one !!
lol:-)” width=”550″ height=”413″ />

Aaron – I wasn't trying to bash Cuben, I have no experience with it but from what I have read it sounds more intriguing than spinnaker. I was just questioning Ben Tang's statement that GG "The One" is made out of cuben fiber b/c I am fairly certain it is made of spinnaker

Otherwise, the Refuge X looks incredible but I certainly cannot stomach the $400 pricetag. I thank all of you early buyers for making the leap and testing this innovative product

Does anyone have good pics of the inside, maybe with some kind of reference object?

GG's "The One" is made out of spinnaker. There was a great thread about the differences between the fabrics here http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/13577/index.html.

Yeah, the cost is high (like you said) but it comes with a very big weight savings. Unlike a down sleeping bag, with careful care, I don't see a negative. Sooner or later, you will lose warmth because you brought down, but unless you puncture the Cuben, it will perform as well as any other fabric. Of course, one of the drawbacks is that because it is so expensive, you tend to get a little more paranoid about it.

very true that cuben has no serious downside (except price)
I guess I should probably get over the price shock and just order it :)

I can already think of a couple of down sides to cuben, though they are not huge issues. The first is for 'romantic encounters' when there are other people around outside the tent, or even just changing clothes. It is pretty see-through! It also seems to me more difficult to get an initially tight pitch. I suspect this is due to the lack of stretch (compared to silnylon), but that can also have an up-side when it turns cold and wet. The third is that the seams are much more prone to tearing if they are not properly reinforced. I'm still trying to decide if I need to reinforce the refuge-x seams before serious use. Yes, I am a little paranoid…

I have had the same problems getting my pitch correct. The floor on mine was also flat on the ground, and the poles seemd to lean in a lot. This was with the recommended 45" length poles, plus 60" front and peak vent tie-outs, and 16" corner tie-outs. Need more practice?? Anyone else struggle to squirm under the fly opening to get in and out of the tent? I am pretty flexible, but couldn't really manage this tent without doing the hands and knees trick. I will be particularly interested to see well how those elevated vents keep out driving rain/snow. Unfortunately we're going into the depths of winter here, so testing may be limited to fine weather forecasts or hut trips where camping is also an option (and backyard trips of course ;))

Good points about the downsides. I would say this:

1) Transparency — This is a weakness. It didn't seam as transparent as the pictures showed, though. It will be interesting to see if the other colors will help cut down the transparency problem. This has been addressed by other folks, so I think there would certainly be value in doing so.

2) Strength of seams — I think the seams are strong, but either way, it is more a result of construction, rather than the material itself. At worse, gear makers need to handle it a bit differently (adding to its cost) but I have heard very few people talk about the material failing. Ron Bell now makes a bunch of tarps with it and people like Bill Fornshell have been making stuff with it for a while now, and I haven't heard any complaints. The stuff is used for sails, so I doubt it comes apart that often. My biggest concern is putting a spork (or similar object) through it. It is tougher than I thought, but it still isn't very abrasion resistant (which is why I'm glad the bottom of the Refuge X is made out of silnylon).

3) Tight Pitch — I think this is more a result of the design of the Refuge, than the Cuben. I think the Refuge is just a bit fussy when it comes to setup. I think we'll all get better at it with practice (and knowing what we know now). Again, I haven't heard from Ron Bell about people saying that setting up a Cuben tarp is a bit harder (because of the lack of stretch). If I'm wrong on this, please correct me.

Just my little take on it:
(1) Transparency is certainly an issue if you need complete privacy. I am usually too exhausted after a day of backpacking, LOL
(2) I am not too worried about strength of seams and agree with Ross's comments
(3) Setting up the tent was really easy!! Not sure where the problems are?! IMHO a lack of stretch is even preferable since it won't sag as much over time. As for the difficulty if enetring and exiting the tent, that is inherent to these types of setups. I have not seen a tarptent that used hiking poles that was much better in terms of allowing entry/exit.

"I have had the same problems getting my pitch correct. The floor on mine was also flat on the ground, and the poles seemd to lean in a lot. This was with the recommended 45" length poles, plus 60" front and peak vent tie-outs, and 16" corner tie-outs. Need more practice??"

Hi Allison,
I don't have any personal experience with the refuge, but I own 3 other SMD shelters (Europa 05, Lunar Solo e, Gatewood cape). The instructions on all these tents recommend a 45 inch pole height but I've found that I personally get better pitches on all three shelters with a slightly longer pole length, in between 46 and 47 inches. I generally use trekking poles so I can adjust the length, but I do occasionally use the SMD 45 inch pole when I use the tents for cycling. In that case, I just place a flat stone or other object under the pole to raise the height a little.

Anyways, something to think about, lots of these shelters have some flexibility in how you pitch them.

I think the cuben fabric is part of the problem getting a tight pitch with the refude. Just look at the difference between the photo of the silnylon refuge versus the cuben…so it's not a design issue as far as I can tell. If that's the nature of this fabric then so be it. We'll get used to it.

As for the low entry, it is so much lower than, eg, the Lunar Solo E that I disagree that it is the nature of trekking pole designed tents. The fly zipper merely needs to extend all the way to the apex where the vent netting is to fix the problem.

I tried slightly longer poles and it was a little better. It was even better when I staked the vestibule out using tent pegs instead of the pole handle, but floor was still flat as a crepe :(

It seems from other shelters that silnylon (w/ its stretch) is a little more forgiving and the design can be a little off and you can still get the pitch taught. However, I still agree that the cuben itself is not the problem, but that it is not forgiving to the slightly imperfect design of the Refuge. I think with a perfect design (albeit it is very difficult to do), cuben would be better because it would not stretch and need to be readjusted. Forgive me if I am wrong about this conclusion

After another weekend of practice, I think we're getting the hang of it. Seems really important to get the four corners tight and sqaure before inserting poles. Also needed to fiddle a little with pole length, but once it was all in place and the side tie-outs were lifted with a second set of poles, it was really spacious. The floor also was lifted slightly this time. Even so, there's a LOT of perimeter mesh just lying on the ground, but I'm hoping that shoving packs and stuff sacks along the edges will stop me from rolling onto wet ground (in weather where that may be a problem). It would only be a potential problem with two in the tent as the floor would provide a huge space as a solo tent!