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sub-2 pounds 4 season tent: hacking Nemo Morpho
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Apr 15, 2008 at 1:05 pm #1428673
Golite Shangri-La 2 weighs 29 oz. The oware cuben pyramid weighs 13.5 oz.
Apr 15, 2008 at 2:07 pm #1428677>The oware cuben pyramid weighs 13.5 oz.
Is this available now or is it still vap'o'ware?
The four sided design isn't quite as wind resistant as the hexagonal shape but that *is* light. :-)
Apr 15, 2008 at 3:01 pm #1428684Hi Franco
> Roger that Rab shelter is not as low as stated. it's about 860mm high
??? The web site says
| Sizes :
| 2100mm x 1200mm base
| 700mm height> I wonder why that design that Roger has shown above is not used by the "big ones" .
Yeah, I know. There is one simple answer to that: it is a bit more complex to manufacture than many other designs, and translates into cost. It's a problem.Actyally, the Lightwave tents are not bad. They don't have sleeves for all the poles, which reduces their wind-robustness, but maybe the velcro tapes are adequate. The absence of full pole sleeves makes the tent a lot easier (cheaper) to manufacture. It is probably enough for many.
As for 'whippy poles' – no way are CF poles in a sleeve whippy! Does not happen at all.
Apr 15, 2008 at 4:05 pm #1428693Roger
That measurement is the "official" measurement that satisfies the GE requirement. The top of the entrance is 700mm not the apex. If you look at Doug's review you will notice that he also followed the party line and than corrected that.I do realize that your design is more expensive but I am sure that if you spend thousands of dollars on an expedition you can spend a couple of hundred dollars to have a lighter and bigger shelter.
Franco
Apr 15, 2008 at 4:23 pm #1428697Rog, not sure if the cuben pyramid is vap-OWARE or not. It's not exactly listed on the website as available is it…
Apr 15, 2008 at 4:34 pm #1428699>As for 'whippy poles' – no way are CF poles in a sleeve whippy! Does not happen at all.
Don't know about CF but I've had a swaged DAC pole split at the joint when a gust uprooted a peg and blew the pole curve inwards. Not what you want in the middle of the night. Getting a replacement sorted out on a long trip can be a hassle. I bought the hex3 with globetrotting in mind, it has the bombproof versatility and on the trail mendability I want.
Apr 16, 2008 at 5:18 am #1428753this is the rough sketch I made using a diagram software called Dia.
I have deliberately made the pole and guyline at same angles so they balance each other. Does anyone think this idea has any merit?
Apr 16, 2008 at 5:25 am #1428755Hex and shangrila are great tents but I dont use trekking poles nor do I see myself using them in future.
Apr 16, 2008 at 8:30 am #1428776>I dont use trekking poles nor do I see myself using them in future.
I use a couple of section of carbon fibre fishing rod. A lot lighter than the aluminium Easton pole. They double as pack stays.
Apr 16, 2008 at 9:16 am #1428784>They double as pack stays.
cool idea! I will think about it.
I have made some mods to make the design simpler.
Straight pole sleeves are much less complex to make then slanted poles. Roger in his DIY notes on winter tent says he uses slanted poles to prevent water from dripping on his gound sheet. I dont think that reason is relevant here as the doors open at sides.
Apr 16, 2008 at 10:09 am #1428794If myoging your own 4 season shelter using poles made by you, have a backup plan in case the shelter goes to pieces in a winter blow. It's nice to want that light of a shelter for two, but what your asking may be too much, IMO. Good luck and be safe.
Apr 16, 2008 at 1:18 pm #1428823re: Oware cuben:
Huh? would anyone seriously consider cuben for a 4-season tent? This is a serious question, not a criticism.
My understanding is that cuben has a great tensile strength but tears easily. I wouldn't trust cuben seams to winter winds on top of a mountain. Also, debris can really blow up there in winter. Even if the cuben survives the wind, you'd be up all night worrying about tree branches cutting through your tent if you are near or below treeline. I think the Hex would be able to resist puncture from small falling branches.
The Hex 3 has a fabric that is much stronger than 1.35oz silnylon, which makes the seams much stronger as well. This, along with the wind-deflecting design and tall headroom in the middle (especially with the inverted V pole setup), are the primary reasons I go with the Hex.
Huzefa: you'd better have some pretty god tieouts on the sides of your tent design. That much unsupported fabric will give quite a bit. I don't even trust the Shangri-La 1 for this reason; I tried the tent out, but the large unsupported sidewalls deflected way too much.
Apr 16, 2008 at 3:20 pm #1428837Hi John
> My understanding is that cuben has a great tensile strength but tears easily.
I can't see how this could be. For a start, good tensile strength is going to mean good resistance to tearing. And the construction of Cuban does not lead to easy tearing.One good reason that Cuban is not used for tents is the very high cost. $$$
But another and equally important reason is that Cuban is extremely stiff – non-stretchy. This presents two problems. The first is that it makes accurate sewing super-critical (cost) and the second is that it makes the tent unforgiving for shock loading. Silnylon on the other hand has excellent elasticity and handles shock loading very well.
Cheers
Apr 16, 2008 at 4:22 pm #1428855Roger,
Perhaps I was unclear; my understanding is that cuben is strong enough that it shouldn't suffer fabric failure (i.e. it won't just rip in two in the middle of the fabric), but that when you puncture it when sewing, it creates weakness. Isn't this why it is recommended to tape cuben seams?
I know all fabrics get a little weaker where the seam holes are, but cuben is weaker at this point than 1.76oz silnylon. And since guylne seams are where the fabric is most stressed in high winds, this is where I have caution using cuben in high winds.
Is there anything in my above statements that you understand differently? I'd love to find out that cuben is strong in high winds; the Refuge X would be mighty tempting (if not for the cost!).
Apr 17, 2008 at 12:11 am #1428907I did some calculations today to work out pole configuration and the tent height.
The front pole uses 6 x 18in sections and 3 x 45° arches. It has a peak height of 42.5in and the base width came to 65in.
The rear pole uses 4 x 18in section and 3 x 45° arches. It has a peak height of 25in and the base width is 49in.
here is the updated design to reflect approx. pole heights:
I am sure a wool/silnylon would be very effective but it also weights a lot. I realised that I would be wearing a wool base and VBL which can in effect be turned into a condensation box. The idea is to breath into your vbl and the condensed water is then absorbed by your wool base layer.
Now how do you breath into your VBL? I think a non rebreather mask may be the answer.
This is the only one I have found which doesnt cover your mouth. From what I understand about non rebreather masks air is inhaled through oxygen reservoir bag which is filled via the the tube you can see. The exhaled air goes out via two one way valves. Idea is to cut off the bag and the tube and attach a tube to the one way valves with the other end inside your VBl.
Apr 17, 2008 at 12:42 am #1428909Maybe you mean 135 degree arches? If I visualize this correctly, you will have very steep lower sides on the tent. These will catch the wind and generate 'lift' at the angled edges. Your height to width ratio is a bit over generous too. Have a look at the shape of Henry Shires Tarp Tents, and note they are for 3 season use, not four. the Squall 2 is around 2 pounds for 2 people.
http://www.tarptent.com/products.html
These tents use a bathtub floor with mesh for ventilation and bug protection. If your design is for cold weather/bug free use, and you plan to put a side to side sewn in floor in it, you will get condensation running off the walls onto the floor even if you're not in it under misty conditions, so plan for trapping/dispersing the water.
Apr 17, 2008 at 1:49 am #1428911Rog, yes I meant 135° arches.
>If I visualize this correctly, you will have very steep lower sides on the tent.
I thought that too. But after drawing the arches on graph paper, I am getting a 67.5° angle between the side walls and the ground. Actually there are no curves in the pole. The front pole is two straight sections>135 arch> straight section>arch>straight section> arch> two straight section.
thanks for the tips for the bathtub floor. Mesh on the sides is a good idea.
Apr 17, 2008 at 2:41 am #1428912Using a single 135* arch with lightly flexed poles like the lightwave isn't a bad idea. the spring in the poles naturally tensions the fabric for less rustling in a breeze without being overstressed on smaller radii and you get the 'near vertical at the bottom' living space without the wind catching edges. For the shape you have designed a 'lighter lightwave' may be the way to go, but your seaming work will have to be good to get 4 season strength from a lighter body fabric.
Catastrophic failure at high altitude in bad conditions is not good for the health. Better to have a margin of safety factored in, and be prepared to carry that margin as the extra 10oz.
Anecdote: I camped at 2500m in a sierra designs lightyear in the Sierra Nevada in spain, and it survived a 60mph storm with one cracked pole joint which I had to whip with some wire. I was sat up half the night bracing the front pole with my shoulders wondering how much more the tent would take. The sunset was beautiful though.
Apr 17, 2008 at 7:37 am #1428922Rog, take a look here and compare the single bend tents with three bend tents.
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/DIY_RNCSummer.htm
But I got your point. I am working on the design to give a bit of a curve to the poles. This will reduce the width from 65 to about 50 but will give more usable space.
I loved that pic. Its beautiful.
______________________________
update: I gave the pole a bit of a curve on the sides but it is dificult to measure the height and the width now. The top panel will be easy as both pole have the same top by design. What I will do is first measure the length of the assembled pole and them make a pole sleeve of that lenght. I think the floor width will decide the amount of curve in the pole.
Apr 17, 2008 at 9:13 am #1428934Huzefa:
Now, that rebreather looks interesting! I had been looking for one of those when I was experimenting with my Nemo Gogo bivy, and thought it might work to keep moisture out of the tent. Let me know if you decide to buy it, how much it weighs, how effective it is, etc. This could work well in any small bivy, as you could completely seal it up.
Apr 17, 2008 at 10:34 am #1428942I emailed spservices.co.uk which sells these mask to enquire how it works. This is the reply I got:
Oxygen is supplied to the mask via the tube at 15lpm, this fills up the Reservoir Bag underneath the mask with 99% Oxygen, when the patient inhales a one way valve opens and High Concentration Oxygen is drawn into the mask, on exhalation the One Way Valve leading to the Reservoir Bag closes preventing exhaled air from entering the bag, the exhaled air is expelled through the valves in the mask wall.
Apr 17, 2008 at 2:11 pm #1428965>Rog, take a look here and compare the single bend tents with three bend tents.
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/DIY_RNCSummer.htm
I notice Roger designates them as summer tents. But don't let that deter you. You'll find out what the design will cope with during field trials. By the time you get to the himalaya, you'll have talked to plenty of people who have camped high.
Low and wide tunnels cheat the wind.
Teepees take the wind from any direction.
As Roger points out, a wide tent is only a few ounces heavier than a narrow cramped one.
Keep thinking about it before you cut expensive cloth. Mock up the design out of plastic and tape and live in it for a few days to discover the right shape.
Apr 17, 2008 at 2:41 pm #1428973> I notice Roger designates them as summer tents. But don't let that deter you. You'll find out what the design will cope with during field trials.
I call that model a summer tent because it is a single skin. You don't get much protection from flying spindrift. However, for a number of reasons it has taken storms and snow. The use of the guy ropes is important.
This shows another fairly old 3-pole tent which does have a double skin and 'straight' Easton poles. (A slight pre-bend but no corners.) The weather than night had been … poor, but as Rog said it did happily 'cheat the wind'. We were quite comfortable inside it.As I said above (with pic), I have since moved to a 4-pole version with corners, for increased stability. By switching from that 'Titan' fabric and Al poles to silnylon and CF poles I have managed to reduce the weight significantly.
Tent design is FUN!
Cheers
Apr 17, 2008 at 3:14 pm #1428981Aah tents !
Apr 17, 2008 at 5:59 pm #1428994Aaah, evening sunlit mountains!
It's what we carry the tents up there on our backs for. ;-)
I machined a new aircraft grade dural joiner for the damaged pole as SD didn't seem interested in replying to my emails even though I offered them free use of the photo.
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