REFUGE X CUBEN OUT !!!

[Sven Klingemann]

Yes, the holy grail of all single wall 2 person tents is out – pre-orders are taken!
https://www.sixmoondesigns.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=58
On the lower end of the expected price at $400.
I had to close my door so as not to embarrass anybody else with my exuberant leaps of joy and excitement.
:-)
S.

[t.darrah]

This looks like a very nice shelter, thanks for the update and link.
But for full coverage protection I will stay with my MSR Twin Sisters. Yes the Twin Sisters weighs nearly double the Refuge X Cuben but the MSR is very tough, nearly equal in floor area and head room, is covered with a warranty and is half the cost at $200.00. I do prefer the Refuge gray color over the MSR orange but I will keep my affluenza in check and stay with what I have.

[Andrew Richardson]

Hmm…I think the point of the Cuben is to be LIGHT! So the fact the the twin sisters shelter is twice is heavy is well…the reason people want this one instead. Sure, it's tougher and all that, but it's twice as heavy, so it better be.

This shelter is about being light. If you don't want somethign really light you wouldn't get this shelter. Also, you can always sell the Twin Sisters shelter and then your Affluenza would be all good.. :)

[t.darrah]

Point taken, I agree 100%. I just wanted to point out that if willing to carry the additional 12 oz in weight (the Twin Sisters weighs 1 pound 12 oz) you get a warrantied product that performs as well or better and costs less by half.

[Sven Klingemann]

Well – you are more or less right. The Twin Sisters does not come with a floor nor with bug netting. Adding these two would add approx 13oz and ~$90, if one takes the MLD Superfly as a comparable shelter to the Twin Sisters. So is it (still) cheaper and under warranty as compared to the Refuge X? Sure.
But correct comparison specs should be more like $275 versus $400 and 2lbs 9 oz versus 16oz. $125 for a saving of 1lb 9oz?
Seems like quite the bargain to me!!! (some people pay an extra $200 for a bivy that is 4oz lighter)
Cheers,
S.

[t.darrah]

I would only use my MSR Twin Peaks as a winter shelter thus the need for bug netting is mute. The floor issue is valid if the Refuge X user carries neither a footprint or bivy. I use my tyvek GCB which serves both as a ground cover/floor and bivy and is minimal in cost. I'm not being critical in my comparison, just stating my thoughts. I would think (this is likely just me) that if a product/fabric is not tough enough to warranty a user may be prudent to carry back up protection such as a bivy.

[Steven Evans]

The Refuge X is awesome! Just in time too! I'll order one this week…I think. Does it state how small it packs down? I bet that would shave some serious in^3 out of your pack.

and ummm, why are we comparing the MSR Twin Sister to the Refuge X?

Edit: packed size 14" x 4"…drooling…

[Sven Klingemann]

Well, I would compare the Twin Sisters to other shelters without a need for netting and floor then. The MLD Superfly is $250 and has the same design. 11.5oz. I suspect a pyramid would shed snow a lot better though and might thus be a better choice for "serious" winter camping.
For a three (to four)season single wall shelter for 2 the Refuge X seems hard to beat. And most importantly for couples:
there is no center pole keeping you apart!! What other comparable shelter can claim that!?
:-)

[t.darrah]

Steven, I think that if you reread my comments I'm only stating my opinion, others like yourself may surely not agree with what I say and that is great. Ummm, why not compare. They are both single wall two person shelters. Yes they are very different and each has positive and negative aspects, thats all that I was sharing.

[David Ure]

nm

[Doug Johnson]

The MSR Twin Peak/Twin Sisters and Six Moon Designs Refuge/Refuge X are apples and oranges. Sure, they're both single wall shelters but other than that, the comparision doesn't line up.

One's designed as a floorless mountaineering shelter. I've had a Twin Peaks and there's no doubt that it's great in the snow- high wind stability, great snow loading, and bomber construction. However, the Refuge is a 3 season backpacking tent.

I used the Refuge this last week (silnylon version) and it offers an amazing usable space and features for the weight. It smokes the Twin Peaks in ventilation and usable interior space and it offers a floor. Besides that, weight is a HUGE factor.

I compare the Twin Peaks to the Mountain Laurel Designs Superfly, which is much lighter (as stated above). I compare the Refuge to the Gossamer Gear/Tarptent Squall Classic, and the Refuge has much more interior space for sitting up than the Squall. It really is a great shelter.

Now, the Refuge X surely is a specialized shelter. I mean, it's made of Cuben! But as far as durability, I found Cuben to be great in non-abrasian situations. Even my Cuben pack has survived some pretty nasty bushwacking with minimal issues (easy repairs with Cuben tape). My Cuben tarp has had no issues. But sure, you have to be more careful- it's a lighter fabric.

As far as the non-bathtub floor, the integrated floor of the Refuge lifts about an inch on all sides. Running water will naturally go underneath (although I haven't experienced running water under the tent in the field yet). Pitched low, though, the Refuge offers great splash protection. To me, this is the biggest reason for the bathtub in the Squall- splashing during heavy rain. But in heavy rains in the Refuge, splashing has been a non-issue.

Don't like the cost of Cuben? Get the silnylon version! It's still a fantastic tent.

Personally, I can not WAIT for the Refuge X in Cuben. 16 ounces for a shelter with this level of ventilation and usable space? I'm IN!

Doug

[Sven Klingemann]

David,
from previous posts and reviews it seems that while there is no "official" bathtub floor, the edges do "rise off the floor".
Ron's take on it is here:
http://community.sixmoondesigns.com/blogs/ronmoak/archive/2008/01/26/ultralight-bathtub-floors.aspx

Here is a description of Cuben fiber as used in the Refuge X (from MLD):
"Cuben Fiber laminates use unidirectional prepreg tapes of in-line plasma treated Dyneema/Spectra fibers spread to mono-filament level mylar films with titanium UV protection. After extensive testing of various weights and weaves of CF, this was the very lightest CF that retained enough strength and abrasion resistance for SUL gear (…) Fully waterproof in the hardest rain (…)It's been used successfully on multiple CDT thru-hikes. Less than half the weight of Silnylon (…)".

(from Questoutfitters.com):
"This is the lightest wt. outdoor fabric we have ever seen. It is 50% lighter than Kevlar, four times more durable than Kevlar and lasts as long as Spectra and remarkable weighs less than 1/2 oz. per square yard. It flexes without loosing strength. Cuben Fiber retains 100% of its original strength after being folded 250 times. It is not effected by salt water nor does it soak up water. It has great UV resistance and is extremely water resistant"

Here is a BPL thread on Cuben fiber:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/2346/index.html

So while it is not bombproof it seems to be stronger than silnylon, which a lot of tents are made of. Is it the best tent for everyone in all situations? Certainly not. But it seems (and I am repeating myself) to be a great 3-season tent that should appeal to a lot of people who are looking to shave weight.

[Sven Klingemann]

Hey Doug,
what is your take on the he Twin Peak/Twin Sisters design in terms of holding up to winter conditions versus the pyramid/half-pyramid design?
Thanks,
Sven

[Steven Evans]

Thom, maybe that came out wrong :(…just simply wondering why we were comparing such different style shelters. Opinions on products is one of the reasons I comb through this site.
Now, "IMO", if one had the requirements for a MSR TS, they wouldn't have the requirements for a Refuge X, and vice versa.
However, compare away.

And now a question, I don't own a cuben tent or a tarp, but will it let tons of light through. I mentioned this shelter to my girlfriend, and the first thing she asked is if she would be able to see the bears (actually noisy squirrels) through the wall. So, will she? :)

[Ross Bleakney]

Thanks for the post, Sven. I've been waiting a long time for a Cuben tarp tent. Just ordered it (now I have to wait again :)).

By the way, Ron has a great community site (forum) at community.sixmoondesigns.com (as Sven mentioned a couple posts ago). It is a great place to discuss the pros and cons of tent design (including fabric). We discussed this design with Ron at http://tinyurl.com/6caka6. Personally, I think this is a great design for a tarp tent. One of the few disadvantages of most tarp tents is that you get ventilation by having air blowing down low (by your face). This tarp tent has a couple of big vents up high, which minimize the need for air blowing down low. The Gossamer Gear "One" has a similar big vent up high.

Oh, and yes, this is expensive, but so is down. Down is also practically useless if it gets wet. Yet people (including me) still buy stuff made from it. Ultralight is all about trade-offs and techniques. If the big trade-off is money, then a product will sell (just ask Ron Bell, whose stuff is expensive, but top notch).

[David Ure]

nm

[Ross Bleakney]

Steven,
There have been a few people wondering about this (how private will you be inside). I'm not sure. I know the Cuben people are coming out with different colors, but only white was available when this was made (so maybe in the future it will be less transparent). Then again, maybe the color won't make much difference. Maybe it is transparent because it is so thin, which is why it is so light.

[David Lewis]

How would you all say this compared to the MLD SuperFly… which is also a 2 person single wall shelter? I'll start by saying the obvious… the Superfly with floor and netting and dual vents is 10 oz heavier… but made of stronger fabric. Neither have a bathtub floor or a vestibule. And the Superfly has the poles inside instead of outside. Other than that… it's hard to compare since there are very limited details about the Refuge X on the SMD website. I wonder how much the Superfly would weigh if it were made of Cuben?

[Doug Johnson]

But is the fabric of the Superfly actually stronger?

I was under the impression that Cuben has a higher tear strength than Spinnaker.

I know for a fact that Cuben's weakness is in the places where it is sewn, requiring reinforcement tape or sealant at the seams. I also know that Cuben is more easily punctured and is less abrasian resistant.

Would a Cuben tent be less strong than a Spinnaker tent? I currently believe this is not the case (except for seams that are not reinforced with tape or sealant). Can anyone shed some light here?

dj

ps In response to a question above- I'm not sure if a two pole two person shelter would have better snowloading than a pyramid or half pyramid shelter. I believe it would but I'm not sure. I do know that my Twin Peaks shed snow quite nicely and that the walls were steeper than a pyramid. Then again, I've never seen a two person pyramid so the comparision may be unfair.

[Ross Bleakney]

Those are fairly similar tents. I think you listed the main differences. Although, it does look like the Superfly does have a bathtub floor (if you order the floor). Also, the floor is not attached to the rest of the tent, unlike the Refuge. I don't think the Refuge has any interior spots to attach cords (I don't know what the term is, but the Superfly has them). I think the vents are a bit bigger on the Refuge (but I don't think either sit lists the size of the vents). Perhaps it is time for BPL to do another round of tarp tent testing! It has been a while.

The product page for the Refuge X does have specifications. It doesn't have many pictures though (unlike the MLD stuff). The community thread I mentioned above has additional pictures and might give you a better idea of what it really looks like when you use it.

[mark cole]

Actually, if you add up the weights of the Superfly, the extra vent, the mesh sides and the floor, it seems to be around 24 oz. And you don't have mesh at the door.
From talking w/ Ron yesterday it seems the seams on the cuben Refuge are not taped, or seam sealed. It didn't seem to be a problem on his prototype.
But from everything I've read and from having some of my own cuben to play with, it seems that you need to reinforce the stitching cause the mylar has very little tear resistance. Perhaps Ron could chime in on this point. Or even Bill.
Other than that i personally have no trouble worrying about owning this gem. You just have to camp smart.

[Kenneth Puentes]

Doug:
Can you elaborate on the pros and cons of Refuge/Refuge X versus Squall Classic. I'm currently torn between these two shelters. There seems to be relatively good reviews of the Squall Classic, but your comments are some of the first I've seen regarding the Refuge in use. Thanks,
-Ken

[David Lewis]

Yes… I guess the Superfly is actually a lot heavier once you add the floor, netting and extra vent.

I have some Cuban stuff sacks with no silicone or anything on the stitching… and they did not last long. The fabric ripped at the seams. I would say that seam taping / sealing is essential for Cuban.

Now I'm torn between this and "The One". The Refuge would be a PALACE for one!!! And if you ever have a partner… you're all set! But it lacks a lot of the features that make "The One" so amazing. So I'm torn between space and features.

[Ulrika Dahlin]

Does anybody know if there are any plans for a cuben version of The One?

I think a cuben version of The One would be amazing.

(Of course the cuben version of the Refuge is also AMAZING!)

[John Haley]

When The One was introduced I asked Grant if a cuben fiber model was planned. He said that they plan to have a limited amount either late in the second run or else in the third run.

I'd guess that the weight would be in the 13.5oz range and , of course, no seam sealing would be needed.

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