Why people gotta hate on the UL crowd?

When I go to stores I don't mention my lightitude, but when talking to employees and hearing about what they use I often say "That is a bit heavier than what I had in mind."

I had one employee at REI that said I could get an Osprey Atmos 50 pack for one week trip without a problem. Then he proceeded to strip the shelves filling it up showing me. I didn't buy the pack because of the akward curve, but it was awesome he did that.

I'm lucky too cause my girlfriend really likes talking about gear! We always chat gear and our systems and everything. It's great fun for us! We are so excited for the weather to let us go out without having to worry about our safety. We only wish we could afford some cold weather gear! Well…I do, she's not into that!

The other place you can be flipped some grief is a high end bicycle shop.
Cyclists can be notorius weight-weenies, and appear absolutely obese compared to anorexic racers. The same line of reasoning prevails " why do you need a lighter seatpost when what you need is a lighter organic seat?"
A local health club offered free annual body fat percent testing and discontinued it when so many of their members were upset by the result, a 190# cyclist @11% compared to a 145# tennis player @23%, too much judging the book by its cover.
People who work in these shops leave a great chunk of their paycheck acquiring the latest widget and resent people who walk in off the street and by purchase it. If you haven't acquired the local stamp of approval and ride up on a mega-buck bike to a group ride they'll try to hammer you into the pavement. I've caught myself making these same stupid logic conclusions recently when a middle age guy through a leg over the top of the line Colnago. He was complaining about it mentioning he was flying to Italy to pick up the even greater new model and my mind was already writing him off as a jerk. A kind of reverse envy occurs when we chose elitist activities or maybe the correct word is "fringe".
How many of us do a kind of mental math at the grocery store when we see a large person and glance into their shopping cart ready to disapprove their choices.

Hi Larry,

Your bike shop ovservations cracked me up. There are indeed shops like that, which exist primarily to harvest the wallets of the upper crust. Luckily, real racer rat shops are more tyically quite welcoming of and patient with newbies and provide a good deal of useful information and education. I'm lucky enough to live a short walk from the best such shop in my region. It's the sort of place where you'll see Eric Heiden at the same time as a homeless guy buying an inner tube.

Even so, I've been in there while several rich guys were having a "weigh-off" with the shop's scale, a scene eerily similar to the seniors who gather around the blood pressure machine at the local drug superstore, comparing their numbers.

It's okay though, as those loaded enthusiasts really help keep the shop in business, as well as keeping Craig's List full of their high-end castoffs. As you doubtless know, the price of one loaded custom bicycle would equip any backpacker for life.

As to the orginal posters experience I think its just store employees in general. It doesn't matter what your philosophy is store employees want to know more than you (I'm speaking in general of course).

I'm big into archery and the guy at my local archery shop is alittle behind in the times. I know way more about archery gear than he does and that's a bad thing. The first time i went into his shop we almost got into a fight. Now when i go in there I just play dumb. i know when he is BSing and I know I can't rely on him for accurate info. Yet because I play dumb we have a good enough relationship now.

As far as people hating on the UL crowd I think it goes both ways. I have read many many trip reports from UL hikers and almost all of them have a little comment making fun of the people with big packs.

>>f you walk into a gear store and announce to the staff that you are an Ultra Light Backpacker or even worse, walk in with a scale, then you deserve what you get.

It's probably a bad idea to strut into a gear shop with a lighter-than-thou attitude. On the other hand, I never go gear shopping without a scale. It's a lot less hassle than having to return a piece of overweight gear.

Here's how I do it.

Bring in a small, unobtrusive scale carried casually in one hand. Unless they are "in the club" most folks won't even notice what it is. After saying in a friendly manner,"no thanks, I'm just browsing", find your piece of gear and proceed to weigh it. If you choose a larger store such a REI on the weekend, chances are that no one will notice or care what you're doing. The most grief I'm gotten over the years is an occasional look that you'd give to harmless eccentrics. Since I really AM a harmless eccentric, it doesn't bother me.

Bringing your scale into a store can have unexpected benefits. Those "in the club" will instantly recognize you. You never know where members of this fifth column will be hanging out.

Once, while shopping at the Denver REI Flagship store, a clerk approached me with a twinkle in his eye and asked me what I was carrying under my arm. An animated conversation about UL gear and practices ensued. Last time I ran into him, we spent twenty minutes talking about his UL thru-hike of the Colorado Trail.

Coming up: Part Two. How to talk to concerned rangers and other land managers you might meet on the trail. :-D

the oldest gear shop in our town is owned by a couple who are active UL evangelists. There are days then Rod's "pack" could make Ray Jardine's load look like a pack mule's.

When I first discovered lightweight backpacking a few years ago, I was tempted to open a Lightweight Outdoors shop here in Vancouver.

Canada has *not* discovered the trend, and it's hard to get many of the brands that you Americans know and love. You have to hunt them down, order them from over the border, and sometimes get them directly from the manufacturer or distributor.

Has anyone else thought of opening the equivalent of ProLiteGear in either online or retail form? Are there such things as ultralight gear brick-and-mortar stores in the USA?

There arn't any dedicated UL stores here in AZ, however there are a few places that sell WM bags, GoLite clothing and equipment and a few other odds and ends

We do need to stop Baging on the non-Ulers.

You may hear a lot from them when off the trail, but when you meet them on the trail, they are the once that are speechless…

I will say I was one of those shop guys at the big chain many years ago as well and all I can say is who cares what they think. They will not be making fun of you when you are wizzing by them on the trail with a load smaller than their daypack…

I don't mind. Really. I don't. What it boils down to is that the crowd will make it only four or five miles up the trail to the first (overused) campsite while the entire rest is left for me to enjoy the stillness and solitude that I went there for. And they will have as much fun for them as I for me.

Recently I was in REI just looking around when I was approached by a not buff middle aged woman. She asked for advice on stoves and mentioned that she only occasionally ventured into the woods. I sang the praises of the Jetboil (I have one but seldom use it because of the weight) and off she went to the checkout. Having a no-fuss experience with this stove may be just the gateway leading to becoming more than an occasional backpacker…maybe even becoming UL!

When I raced I was sponsored (road bikes anyways) but I did work in some shops like that.

One shop had a crusty mechanic who hated gearheads. Some rich kid came in wanting a titanium bolt set for his bike. It was 500-600 dollars and dropped a few ounces off the bikes weight.

The mechanic told him to consider taking a dump before going riding. He used stronger language.

Hey, I'm glad I read this thread.

I'm going to pull out toothbrush bristles, one by one. I will find the optimum number of bristles and write up a review.

I had the delight recently of having store clerks tell me something from my website on lightweight and ultralightbackpacking. It happened at every store.

I think the ultralighters are more than anecdotal. I think we are driving the market.

I even met a nice young man at Ft. Mason International Hostel, San Francisco wearing stuff he found on my dot info website. I said, "Oh my g-d! You're me!"

One of the problems with the bike analogy and Greg's story of the mechanic reminded me of this, is we actually have to have these machines bear our weight. Ul backpacking equipment can be fragile but ul bikes will just self destruct underneath you. There was a real recent epidemic of magnesium handlebar stems snapping, not the thing you want at above 1mph. Smarter companies have weight limits on there ul lines, but there will always be a bear balanced on thin tubes somewhere and I think shop people are within rights to chip at buyers. Mechanics get tired of retruing wheels and doing warranty work when some beast is JRA [just riding around, this is what the parent tells you his son was doing when they bring back a trashed bike. I once was evaluating a whipped bike, the parent holding to the JRA line and looked outside to see junior jumping one of test bikes in the parking lot]
There is also a little new convert preaching I've run across from our side of the fence. On the ferry trip uplake to a North Cascades cirque climbing one of our recent converts to UL yammered away about my pack size and estimated weight,how much better life would be if I just logged onto BPL.com, blah, blah, double blah. Anytime we define a strict discipline elitism seems to cross from both sides. Just some thoughts.

Sorry , but I need to chime in here.. I work in a gear shop, and I can promise you that you will be treated with respect and honesty anytime you come into our place. Personally, I love to talk to people about what they are doing or planning to do, and consider such interaction as an opportunity to learn. I should also say that it's an REI store.

Don't forget the UCI (sanctioning body for road racing) has set a limit for minimum bike weight. When I was racing most racers were more interested in bike handling and fit than weight. Some riders actually prefer a heavier bike. I would take a stiff alloy machine with light wheels over a flexy carbon fibre frame. A light bike isn't much good if you can't come down a descent and take a corner at 70KPH. The analogy is bad because ultralite backpacking can only be a benefit (unless taken to an absurd extent), while too light of a bike can mean adverse performance. I would love to see someone ride the Ronde Van Vlaanderen on one of those all carbon twigs…

>>I'm lucky too cause my girlfriend really likes talking about gear!<<

I wish I was that lucky!!! :)

I think most people don't like being told their way is wrong, who doesn't. Different strokes for different folks! Anyways, I'm not a big talker so no one really bothers me. I also gave up on most retail stores for bigger items (packs,shelters,sleeping systems), but find them useful for smaller items. In the end they have not found the Tao of Backpacking.

It seems we have a number of present or former outdoor gear shop staff in this forum. I also work for a (the:-) big outdoor recreation co-op. In response to an earlier comment, we do not get paid by commission, and are encouraged to think in terms of a long term relationship with our customers. If they don't have a positive experience when they head outdoors, it's not likely that they'll be back to do business with us in the future. Nor will they care as much about protecting the environment as they go through life. As wonderful as UL gear is, if we don’t have any natural places left to use it, it really won’t be of much use. We need to support and encourage those who share our interest in the outdoors and view them as potential allies in the fight to protect it.

While UL'ers tend to take their gear seriously and use it carefully, many (most?) people don't, and maybe they have the right idea? Few people want to learn all that an auto mechanic knows about cars, they just want to get in, turn the key and get to where they're going. This approach works with the typical passenger car, but wouldn't work with a highly tuned race car that requires special care and maintenance as well as different driving techniques.

A customer I had the chance to talk with recently came in looking for one of those high end, heavy, rugged, durable, indestructible packs – you know, the ones we always make fun of ;-) He worked as a guide and knew darn well what kind of abuse the pack would get. When hiking on his own (not work related), he used lightweight gear.

What would be acceptable treatment of "ordinary" gear might constitute abuse of UL gear. I try to sound out customers with regard to how much they want to "bother" with their gear before I recommend anything. A brilliantly designed, beautifully made UL tent won't survive a user who isn’t interested in learning what its limitations are. As a gear freak I often cringe, but remind myself that the important thing is that the customer is getting out and enjoying the natural world and developing an appreciation of its complexity, beauty and value.

Another two cents worth.

Larry that story is precious! A guy telling you to check out BPL, not even pausing to consider that you were on a climbing trip rather than a SUL poncho-tarp thru-run.

I think that just as the traditional set will say "more is always better", lightweighters are sometimes guilty of the "less is *always* better" attitude.

Less is certainly *usually* better when you have to carry it, but I think that the real question should be "what do I want for what I am doing?" PCT: 6lb baseweight. Guiding a group: gear that I don't have to fuss with, extra gear to lend out, and a fast stove. 10-mile hike with a big group: red wine! JMT: UL tarp and fishing rod.

Brett posted this awhile ago, and I put it in my notebook:

METTT:

Mission
Exposure
Terrain
Team members
Time

If you go into a gear store with a Mission; i.e. "I want to walk 50 miles next weekend" then they will probably understand and respect you more. If you just say "enh, this weighs too much and that weighs too much" then you'll sound like you're spouting ideology. And nobody likes an ideologue.

Larry, Phil

Just on the bikes, I recently bought this European spec Cannondale:

http://gb.cannondale.com/bikes/08/ce/model-8TK2.html

for commuting and for some Audax (Randonneur). I test rode a lot of bikes and this was the only one I felt comfortable on (I have separated neck vertebrae from playing rugby). The (young) guys at work want me to do a 220 k ride with them (the Around the Bay in a Day) but they'll be riding bikes only a little more than half the weight of mine – do you think I bought too heavy a bike? I can of course take off the racks, kick-stands etc if needed and I do find that it's comfortable and pretty much eats up the ks …

Arapiles

That Cannondale is a fine bike and if you do decide to do the ride you'll probably see a few folks on knobby tire mountain bikes out there. First, do the base miles, you can find all kinds of articles online that will let you work backward from your target date and lay out a training program. Distance riding is not always about speed but a lot more about comfort, there is an amazing amount of little aches and pains that creep up on you, learning to stretch on the bike and changing hand and torso positions can make a lot of difference. I wouldn't take off the racks but you might think of adding a simple clip-on style tri-bar, it will give you more riding positions and allow you a more aero profile, they do work with flat bars. A slightly narrower tire profile can also help, changing from the 30mm to 25 or 23mm. You've lots of gears be sure you use them, devolping a bit of spin versus mashing larger gears too. I find myself when I start to reach my limit forgetting to do this smelling the barn. Take advantage of all rest stops stretching lightly, keeping moving [don't thump down in a heap, you'll stiffen up], consume some calories, refill bottles adding any electrolytes you use. Build your miles slowly, try different drink and food combos before your big ride, get a massage or do your legs yourself afterward, don't soak in a hot bath for the first 24 hours afterwards, do some light exercise like spinning your lowest gear for a few miles the next day and you'll do fine. Most of these kinds of rides have halfway distances too, if I haven't done the training I have no ego loss in doing a 50 mile instead of 100. The neat thing about long rides is there is always someone riding at your pace just hook up with them and enjoy the ambience, resist the urge to get on a freight train and hammer until you know your personal limits and riding style. Good Luck, let me know how it went.

-"There was a guy that came into the store alot, that we dubbed "Golite man" (he was always wearing UL clothing and gear in the middle of the city). He would come in often and ask random questions about new gear on the market (most of it US gear) and whether we were getting it in or not, and generally waste alot of staff time."-

I don't wear UL clothing around casually (costs too much and is mostly too fragile!) but I DO go in my local outfitter shop (independent mom and pop type place) and ask about gear that I expect them not to have or carry in the future. I figured it would be an innocuous way of suggesting inventory ideas without seeming to tell someone how to run their business. I think it mostly goes right over their heads. I have never mentioned "ultralight" but I'm sure it's obvious to all but the cute high school girl that sometimes tries to assist me.

I spend too much on gear and would like to spend it locally.
I do buy SOME stuff there when I can, and always check there first, before buying online, but honestly… they make it difficult.

They all recognize me when I come in, and are always polite and ready to help me find something, from their large selection of bomber gear. I think they could do a better service to their community by educating their customers and at the same time increasing business, while maintaining their name-brand-buying yuppie-type high-end clientele.

But what do I know…

-"I had the delight recently of having store clerks tell me something from my website on lightweight and ultralightbackpacking."-

-"I even met a nice young man at Ft. Mason International Hostel, San Francisco wearing stuff he found on my dot info website."-

ConnieD,
May I ask what the URL is to your site?

"There was a guy that came into the store alot, that we dubbed "Golite man" (he was always wearing UL clothing and gear in the middle of the city). He would come in often and ask random questions about new gear on the market (most of it US gear) and whether we were getting it in or not, and generally waste alot of staff time. He never bought anything from the store, we knew it, and it was really annoying. He knew that we would never stock it, and that in Australia we only get a handful of the ranges of most US gear manufacturers from our suppliers."

Adam, until you said you were in Adelaide I thought you were referring to me!

"That Cannondale is a fine bike …"

Thanks Larry, it's one I'm growing to like – I did 30k last Saturday and it went quickly so the 50k Brevet I'm thinking of later this month as my first foray into Audax shouldn't be too bad.

Thanks for the good advice.

(p.s. This is the "Around the Bay in A Day:

http://www.bv.com.au/great-rides/20005/