Why Are We Even Still Here? was “A Very Thorough MYOG Site”

I think Wikipedia is a great place to put a lot of ultralight information. For example, we could list out all the tarp tents or all the alcohol stoves. Many of the articles written by the BPL folks could also be referenced.

For a lot of stuff, though, I think we need our own wiki or some other means to document the information. There are a lot of do-it-yourself projects out there that I don't believe would pass the Wikipedia test. In other words, I fear that the Wikipedia people might question the relevance. That could lead to frustration.

I'm also not sure how well Wikipedia could be integrated into the forums. I think a nice wiki hosted by BPL with forum support might be just what we want. For example, we could have a wiki page for clothing. In it, we could reference a bunch of articles of a general nature as well as linking to another wiki page about wind shirts. The wind shirt page could not only talk a bit about wind shirts in general but provide a complete listing of wind shirts. Someone who has a question about a wind shirt could start a thread off of that article. I think this would provide much better integration of the information which is provided by BPL with the information provided on the forums (which, I might add is often provided by BPL members).

Hi Brian and all enthusiastic readers

> Maybe they wrote off the staggering cost of development over a decade, and now have to use the software all that time for tax reasons?
Nice guess, but I think not.

My understanding is that BPL started in July 2003, with essentially zero capital. The software was partly home-grown and partly bits and pieces. There has been no outside investment at all so far. So you can see that the growth rate has been fantastic – and of course such fast growth as created its own problems.

As so many of you have pointed out, a lot of the software is now struggling. Google and Wiki handled that their way, although I bet they had their struggles too. But we are hearing you, and trying hard to come up with a decent plan.

So please have a little bit of patience while we sort out the best way to advance BPL into the next decade of growth. We want it to succeed, and you want it to succeed too.

Cheers
Roger
PS: we also invented UL, SUL and the alcohol stove , so there …

Thanks Roger,
I think I speak for a bunch of us in saying that we really like the site but want to see it get better. I know, personally, that if there was a lifetime membership, I would buy it tomorrow (so much great stuff here).

To further the cause (improving the site) I put together a little wiki page here:
Improve BPL. I tried to capture all the ideas thus far expressed. I’m sure I missed some, so please, everyone, please add to this. I want to keep the main wiki part brief, but I encourage you to add stuff to the Threads if you want to comment. Eventually, maybe this stuff can be boiled down and we could vote on what improvements we would like to see first. Of course, there is also the trade-off of cost of development. I’m in software, so I am well aware of the trade-offs (and I use a lot of open source software in my development and agree whole heartedly that any solution should use open source software as much as possible). Also, this is the first time I’ve used wetpaint (the free wiki) so I have no idea if there are better options out there.
Thanks,
Ross

Few days ago, I suggested starting a wiki for sharing our knowledge. Wikipedia is to genaral to allow more specialized articles, so I thought about starting new one dedicated to UL backpacking.
I did a search on possible hosting options and the best I found was site http://www.wikia.com . It is a free hosting of specialized wikis, running MediaWiki content management system system, the same wikipedia uses.
I thought it would be possible to start new wiki there, but I found there already is a wiki on backpacking:
http://backpacking.wikia.com
The policy of the site is not to create wikis that can be included in existing ones, so it is the right place for our content.
It is empty now and it is up to us what we add there.
Being interested especially in MYOG, I will try to build some structure for the contents and fill something in.
There are also some UL backpacking-related articles on wikipedia that could be copied here for start.

I'd be willing to help with the wiki project. I don't know that I could offer a whole lot, but I've worked with keeping the wiki at work updated and could be of some use in that area.

Adam

Talking about something here is one thing, but somebody had to start the action. So I went to the backpacking wiki (http://backpacking.wikia.com/) and created Ultralight backpacking and MYOG categories. For the very beginning, I posted my list of MYOG material sources. It is a thing where collaborative editing could bring very useful results.

Now everyone can join and add his knowledge.

[Edit:] I would really appreciate if someone with better knowledge of how the wikis are organized can build the basic structure of categories and directories.

From previous Member Posts:
“I don't know that I could offer a whole lot….

“I would really appreciate if someone with better knowledge of how the wikis are organized can build the basic structure of categories and directories…..

“To further the cause (improving the site) I put together a little wiki page here: Improve BPL.

From BPL Staff Posts”
“But we are hearing you, and trying hard to come up with a decent plan. So please have a little bit of patience….

“I am crafting a more detailed response to you all about our plans for 2008. We are changing our ownership and management structure and this will have dramatic, positive change for all of us this year.

To Members I say: “Pull Together, And In the Same Direction” .

Slapping up a half of dozen sites and then saying “Who can help?” won’t get this job done.

To Staff I say: “Communicate Often, Even If It’s Not Perfect.”

Yes you have grand plans, but a basic outline of direction, technology, and timeline would help with the “patience” aspect.

I know it is confusing, but the wiki at http://improvingbpl.wetpaint.com/ is not designed as a substitute or addition to this site. It is designed so that we can organize ideas on how to improve this site. I know this thread is doing that, but it is, in my opinion, a mess (and I've contributed to it). It is a bit like having a long "brain storming" meeting with no one taking notes (and boiling down the ideas). Creating a wiki to just list out the dozen or so ideas we have to improve the site is probably overkill (maybe I should have just created a blog) but it works.

Or, we can continue to use a single thread (now about 60 posts long) to list out our ideas. That being the case, I have the following suggestions (copied from http://improvingbpl.wetpaint.com):

1) Forum Improvements:
1.1. Allow threads to have a "tree view". For example, see how this page http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/9/10743/70607/707/433546 has comments underneath it. The comments form a tree.
1.2. Sticky Threads.
1.3. Provide a way to view all new forum posts. Right now, you have to pick a category and then see the new posts under it (there is no way to look at all the posts from all the categories, sorted by post order).
1.4. Add more sub-categories (especially for G-Spot, which is pretty big).
1.5. Allow a forum thread to be "tagged". This would enable easier searching. We would want to be able to see a list of all the tags and be able to create new ones.
1.6. New Posts should have the same subject, but allow refinement after a slash (e.g. "Looking for a tent/Consider Europa").
1.7. Create a better way to track whether you've read a thread or not. Right now, this is based on whether you have accessed the page (and not the individual thread) which means you might lose a lot of information.

2) General Layout:
2.1 Create a wiki (which would allow members to edit information). I'm sure how the wiki could be organized? thoughts?
2.2 Have better searching of both the forums and the articles.
2.3 Have the ability to sort or search articles by page view (the number of people who have viewed it).

3) Content Improvement
3.1 Update the articles. Specifically the "State of the Market Report" or … (add some suggestions here)
3.2 More of this, less of that. (add suggestions)

Hi All,

In response to user requests that came in several months ago, BPL has been setting up a Wiki, here's an update on the status.

We're setting up the final data structure and integration with BPL.com this week, and we plan to have it online and published by the end of next weekend. I'll post the link here when it's ready to roll.

Ryan

It's great news that should have been released earlier. I'm really looking forward to it.

Knowing this (a step that didn't seem probable to me*), I fully agree with Greg to postpone all other actions (complaining about the forum still allowed) until these new features are released.

Ryan, could you provide more details or is it secret?

---

* The issue is licensing of th wiki contents. If it is licensed under ordinary wiki license (GFDL), everything is OK, but the BPL has no control over it (wild example: another company can copy all the data and use it on their website – of course under the same license, but still…)
If there will be some proprietary license saying that users can add and edit contents, but it belongs to site owner, there is no reason for users to do so when they can do the same elsewhere and free.

What's confidential is the financial / ownership structure, and HR decisions that have yet to be finalized for BPL in 2008. Most of that is boring anyways, other than that which will impact the user experience, which will include:

1. New talent on staff for management, web, and editorial development; and
2. Investment capital for new projects, and to improve existing ones.

I'm wrapping up a "state of BPL address" that will be published in the next week or so, that will discuss in detail a lot of what is going on behind the scenes here, and how that impacts what you'll be seeing in 2008.

And by 2008, I'm not talking about December. These changes will begin being implemented this month with our Outdoor Retailer coverage, and be aggressively implemented, so that by July, I think much of the things you are addressing your criticisms towards: forums, editorial balance, search engine, etc., will have been rectified to the point where we can really start investing our energies into creating a vastly better user experience here.

Ryan

And Ross – thanks for the ideas; at least one is already in place in addition to the upcoming wiki:

There's a "New Posts" link on the home page under "Quick Links" that shows all new posts, from all forums. Several different sort options, too.

BPL has definitely been a great source for technical wizardry and UL community encouragement, but I'm also more in Mark's "simplicity is goal number one" camp. UL techniques help unload the weight of your pack, but sometimes have a penchant for getting complex.

With that in mind, I agree that streamlining some of the forums with "sticky threads" for newbies, "faqs" for old topics, and some re-thought out categories for threads could help. At the same time keeping the thread on task is the constant battle of user self management and community policing.

I'm not part of the software scene, but I imagine there are as many forum management options as there are UL stove designs. Finding the perfect one must be difficult.

I hate to bring this Thread back up but I have been looking for a few old threads and just discovered that the name of the person starting a thread is not listed in the forum index.

I think at one time the person starting the thread was listed or am I mistaken? The name listed now is the last person to reply.

I can sometimes remember the originator of a thread but seldom can remember the thread name. I don't even remember the names I have used for all the threads I have started.

Bill,
You are correct.

It Eecks me too.

I have pretty much looked at every single forum coversation for the past 4 years.

There are a few clasics out there that I have no idea where they are. I know who started them too but doesn't do a bit of good.

Hi Aaron,

OK, this makes finding anything here about as bad as it can be. The only thing I see that could be worst is a complete melt down with no back up data.

Maybe we should start our own web site and have it just for SUL and Lighter.

Wait A Minute!! Is that a helicopter I hear? Yes, and it seems to be – looking for My House. Yes, and it has a big BPL logo on it. Oh no!! Its is shooting at MY HOUSE!!!!

Help, help, Ryan I was just kidding, honest. Long phase — Fire trucks in the distance.

Bill, was last seen slipping away from his burning home with his Cuben Backpack and his portable sewing machine. Condemned to the life of the outcast and homeless "SUL Fugitive MYOG Guy".

I think I have had to much coffee.

Oh Bill,

I have been whining and crying about this for years now and emailed and vented through Ryan sooooooo many times to have a SUL and Lighter page here.

There is no way I can be on Ryan's good side.

I find it hard to imagine why the SUL and Beyond isn't done since this site was such a revolution at breaking the UL barrier.
It would seem a no brainier to me to go the next step.

This just came up with more of my whining, moaning, and complaining here just a few days ago:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=11471

I have even started a form for this a few years back, (maybe even more than once, and the reply from most, (even Ryan after I emailed him) was something like, why, we are already at the UL stage we want to be at and it seems there is just more of an emphasis here to get people in to UL and keeping them here with other shenanigans that has nothing to do with breaking the UL barrier. (Wow, long sentence)…

When Ryan put his book out and I finally got to be UL, I have just been milling around the forums waiting ever so impatient for what was to come next.
I don't know but maybe it's a responsibility issue or guilty conscious that BPL may feel about sending a new person out in the field with out the proper knowledge and having something happen and thus having them blame the site.
At least that's what I get out of the whole (Why in the heck has what we are talking about) not happened yet.

It's not that it's just more Blah Blah Blah. The information put on this site for "Members" is excellent.

However, the forums are now on the same line as any other site out there and 95% of the feedback I get from trying to get, talk about, and getting other people's perspective about going SUL is just BS.
95% of the replies or conversations about this also seem to come from members with a below 1.00 rating, so it just seems like I am pulling my hair out all the time for nothing. At least I am happy that the rating is still available so I can justify what level of input people give me.

I will always stay a member here bcause it is still the best.
I know I am not everyones favorite forums poster out there but I can't understand why others just don't see the light at the end of the tunnel out there that I ,(and you) are seeing.

I agree with your comments. I have had one thread removed from here for reasons I don't fully remember and it was in the Chaff section.

I am still quietly tweaking my Sub 5 pound (SUL) AT gear list. I may have a window open between the end of April and the first of September this year for a hike. I really want to get out on a long hike of at least 1000 miles starting at the southern end of the AT and going north. This would put me on the trail in mild (low of 35 degrees maybe) to hot (???) and it should give me a chance to go with the lightest set of gear possible.

The base line for my gear list would be what I used on my short Sub-2 pound hike on some of the Georgia AT in Oct 2006.

(That is one of the things I was looking for and still have not found it)

The hike would assume a resupply every 3 to 5 days with 3 or 4 days as the goal. Long hiking days with ??? miles per day. I would go for a long day and a steady but moderate pace.

Re: "(That is one of the things I was looking for and still have not found it)" Is this what you were looking for?

Sub 2-lb Gear List
Final – – 13 Oct 2006
Weather range for the next 4 days. Lows down to 35, highs up to 65. Windy, clear and sunny.

1- PACK – SHELTER – SLEEPING: As of – 13 Oct 2006

Backpack Cuben Pack – Modified w/Sternum Strap 1.97-p
Pack liner – GG – Pack liner – M 1.35-p
Sleeping pad Balloon Bed (12 to 19 balloons & Kilt Shell) 1.96-p
Shelter Poncho/Tarp 2.80-p
Shelter support (Using trekking poles) 0.0
Stakes (6) for Poncho/Tarp 1.23-p
Guylines for Poncho/Tarp 1.42-p
Sleeping bag Quilt/Tunic – counted as clothing 0.0
Bivy Sack 3.00-p
Ground Sheet GG Polycryo Cloth (m) 1.65-p

Total weight in pack – 15.39 oz

2 – CLOTHING: As of 13 Oct 2006

Kilt Home-Made Kilt (counted w/balloon bed)-p
Base layer top Patagonia #2 Wool Crew 6.7-w
Base layer bottom Pat. #2 Wool Bottoms 6.34-w
Insulating top PG-D Tunic/Quilt 7.82-w
Raingear (hard shell) top Poncho/Tarp-p
Windgear Use Poncho-p
Warm gloves Possumdown 1.37-p
Socks-wear Wright-Sock 1/4 2.77-w
Spare socks Wright-Sock 1/4 1.68-p
Insulated Toe Cozy's 0.67-p (see picture below)
Trail Runners TNF Ultra 102's 28.34-w
Tilley LT6 Hat 3.25-w

Total weight in pack – 3.72 oz
Total worn – 55.22 oz

3 – COOKING – WATER: As of 13 Oct 2006

Stove N/A 0.0
Windscreen N/A 0.0
Fuel bottle N/A 0.0
Matches/lighter Strike anywhere matches 0.2-p
Cook pot N/A 0.0
Cook pot lid N A 0.0
Drinking mug 12 oz Soda Can 0.42-p
Utensils Home-Made Ti Spoon 0.23-p
Food storage bag Zip Locks(?) ?
Bear bag hang system N/A 0.0
1 Liter Platy "bottle" 0.78 x 2 = 1.56-p
Water treatment – Micro Pur MP1-Tablets (15) 0.41-p
Esbit Tablets 1 each (.5oz) 0.5-p

Total weight in pack 3.32 oz

4 – MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS: As of – 13 Oct 2006

Flashlight/headlamp 1 white photon 0.2-p
Trekking poles (1) Home-Made Trekking Pole 3.2-w
Headnet (if necessary add 0.33 oz) 0.0
Bug dope Out of Bug Season 0.0
Blistex Ultra 1.0-p
Toothbrush toothbrush 0.2-p
Toothpaste (use Dr. Bronner's) 0.0
Alcohol hand gel Dr. Bronner's soap 0.2-p
Toilet paper 8 squares per day 0.5-p
Potty trowel Home-Made Ti 0.31-p
Blister & minor wound care 1.06-p
Chem Heat Pack 2/1.38-p
Whistle 0.1-p
Firestarting kit 0.2-p
Repair (included in with first aid) 0.0
Watch – Timex Alarm 2.5-w
Compass (on watch) 0.0
Maps and permits 1.0-p
Camera (?) ?
Journal kit (?) ?

Total in pack – 5.35 oz
Total worn – 6.7 oz

Sub Total (1+2+3+4)
Total in pack – 27.78 oz
Total worn – 61.92 oz

5 – CONSUMABLES: As of – 13 Oct 2006

Food 2.5 days at 1.25 lbs 60.00 /3.75 – lb
Water 2 L average carried 64.0 / 4-lb
Fuel No Hot Meals – Liquid Diet 0.0
Medicine

Total – 7.75 – lb

6 – TOTAL: As of 13 Oct 2006

Total in Pack – 27.78 oz
(Weight available for (?) items "in pack" = 4.22 oz) (Sub 2-lb = less than 32 oz)

Wear / Carry – 61.92 oz

Consume – 124.00 oz

---

213.70 oz / 13 pounds – 5.70 oz

Total Hike Weight (Naked Weight) = 149 lb
Total Hike Weight (On my body Weight) = 13 lb / 5.70 oz

Total Weight on my feet – Start Day 1 = 162 lb / 5.70 oz

What was in the Sub 2 – lb Pack:

My Insulated Toe Cozy's. These were made in GA after a cold toe night on the first hike. I had taken a scrap "cut-off" piece of my Bivy Liner to use as a neck wrap. I cut it in half – hand sewed the sides and added a cord to each so I could tie it around my ankle to keep my toes warm at night. They were really easy to make and worked great.

My toes had gotten cold on the 42 degree night when I slid off my sleeping pad just enough for my feet to be on the cold ground. My cold feet woke me up and I put my Cuben booties on with my second pair of socks over them. I fixed my pad and went back to sleep. The toe cozy's weigh 0.67 oz.

Thanks Robert,

That is it.
Did you find that here? Where?

I just finished a cut and paste of more or less the same information but from an old trail journal I started awhile back. Yours is from a different place as it has what I wrote about the toe cozy's with it.

I have something like that here someplace but I think it might have been a part of a thread started by someone else.

It is bad when you forget where you have parked your own work.

I guess I need to look at every post I ever made here and bookmake them all.

Here it is Bill. What have you been up to anyway? Pretty quiet from your side of the pond lately.:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/4077/index.html?skip_to_post=31451#31451

Thanks Jhaura,

I am just plugging along. Sort of not trying to get into to much trouble.

Funny what you can find if you give the system a chance to work. I knew I had about the same information on an old trail journal so I went there first.

Then I came back here and did the forums search for sub 2 pound. It showed up on page 2 or 3.

I don't know why I never added that thread URL to my list but it is there now.

I am going to start with that set of gear and add to or sub from it for the new hike gear list. The only big change might be that I think I want to try and use my Cuben Hammock most of the time.

Being a multi-faceted genius, I read it once and committed it to my photographic memory, then re-typed it. P.S., I also sell land in the desert that I guarantee will become waterfront property when California falls into the sea. (Actually, I just had it in my collection of Word2003 files, organized in folders and documents.)

For acquiring state of the art light backpacking gear, I see two ways: BUY or MYOG. Your decisions relate to your willingness to spend your money and/or you time. Here are four variables of willingness:

M – You are willing to spend your money

m – You are not willing to spend your money

T – You are willing to spend your time

t – You are not willing to spend your time

Here are the rules:

To BUY you must at least be M

To not BUY you must at least be m

To MYOG you must at least be T

To not MYOG you must at least be t

There are four combinations:

---

BUY—-MYOG
M & T–yes—-yes
m & T–no

---

yes
M & t–yes—-no
m & t–no

---

no

For acquiring state of the art light backpacking gear, this gives us four categories of BPL users:

1 – Those willing to spend both their money and time

2 – Those not willing to spend their money, but willing to spend their time

3 – Those willing to spend their money, but not willing to spend their time

4 – Those neither willing to spend their money nor their time

Categories 1 & 3:
State of the art light backpacking gear direct consumers (purchasing from BPL Gear Shop) and indirect consumers (purchasing from other than BPL)

Category 2:
State of the art light backpacking MYOG information givers and takers

Category 4:
Not acquiring state of the art light backpacking gear

Conclusion

Based on the forum threads and posts, we're here to acquire state of the art light backpacking gear. Category 1 & 3, consumers is why we are here for the most part. Category 2 is another important reason. All else here is insignificant in relation to buying and making gear. Category 4 represents the discontented voices we here.

I feel like Ryan and crew were not only some of the first people to take UL as a way of life, like many of us here, but they spread that gospel. Sure there are a few books out there on the matter, some good some terrible, but the UL bible as it is, was and is huge for a lot of people. That was the avenue Ryan and et al chose to use at the time to pass along some truly UL techniques AND why they make sense. There are a lot of activities we all do and it is not usually the case that the fringe element of those groups like Ultracycling publishes a huge amount on how to better do that activity. However, when those publications come out everyone pounces and gobbles up the info and then a few years later with all this info being, seemingly, every where we forget what it was like shooting in the dark.

Now I definitely feel like improvements could be made and there are some lovely ideas. I will also concede that I have not read every post on here. I attribute some of my sustainability in UL to the fact that I do not remember a specific thread and who brought it up. There is a wealth of info on here for the not so dedicated and not so veteran but there needs to be nurturers of those folks. Sure the info on UL is relatively stagnant but come on we have sub 5 pound packs without even thinking perhaps we need to get some perspective. Sub 2 is crazy sick and deserves attention but to ask why we are here. Ryan and the folks who do this assuredly have innumerably responsibilities and are doing a valiant effort to make this not only sustainable for you and I but for their families and their life balance. Question it all you want but I feel like the only reason you would ask your self why you are still here is because you have now become the teacher in a field where any real advancement is put off by another revolution in thinking that, as we recall, took too long to come around in the first place. It was not that long ago that a sub 40 pack was killer.