R1 Hoody vs. Thermal Weight Hoody (new Cap4)

I think the R1 would be overkill. The times where you would use the mid layer would be in storms with near freezing precipitation, pretty much worse case scenario. R1 under a shell could be too warm for most people. Think of layers in term of first, second, third layers. I overheat and cool down easily, so I want my second layer to be very light for good adjustability. R1 would be a third layer over a second layer for me personally. I use a cap 4 as a second layer. All this being said, plenty of people hike with no mid layer, just relying on base layer and rain jacket to get through bad weather.

Agree with Justin. Over a base layer and under a wind shell for me Cap 4 goes to about from about -5 to -10˚C when moving. R1 would be too hot, but it also depends how fast you move or how hot you get on the move. I'd rather use the saved weight of not taking the R1 in some extra down for when stationary. I run hot on the move, and cold when stationary though.

You're talking what, something like April through September? I only know a few PCT thruhikers, and don't recall what clothing they carried, but unless it gets unseasonably cold at higher elevations, I personally wouldn't consider either of those grid fleece pieces even usable, much less something I would plan to carry for hiking in. I have a few grid fleece tops, including last year's R1 hoody and a Terramar crew neck roughly comparable to Cap4. With the exception of regular daytime temps well below freezing, I have mixed feelings about them. They're very warm as a baselayer and push moisture as advertised, but flop as a single/outer due to lack of wind resistance, so I find it hard to strike a balance with them. Actually carried the R1 hoody for an overnighter this week as my insulation for around camp and to supplement my 50F quilt, since 40s were possible. Turned that into a dayhike, though, so it never left my pack.

I'm planning on picking up a thermal weight hoody for the exact same purpose – maybe I'll see you out there :) Owning an R1 zip neck from a few years ago, it's definitely too warm to hike in unless it's very cold – much colder than the PCT. It is also much too heavy for static warmth… your down is for that. I'm mainly bringing it as a very warm sleeping layer that can do more if need be. I do hike kind of cool, and often on cold summer days will have an older cap 3 zip neck as a mid layer. I don't think I *need* the extra warmth of the thermal weight, but due to the design I suspect I won't overheat – and it weighs LESS than cap 3 (or the new midweight). It's also available in a hoody for even more versatility. If you feel a fleece mid layer is required (which I do) it makes the most sense. Also, thanks for the info on the sizing. I previously owned and sold a cap 4 in medium, largely because it fit too snug to be a mid layer. I had read thermal was slightly more relaxed, but doesn't sound like it's relaxed enough still without sizing up (e.g. I'd been hoping they'd blown out to ~R1 sizing)

I agree that you probably don't need a mid layer for the PCT, but if you decide you do I would recommend a regular 100 weight fleece and save some cash and weight. I bought a 100wt Polartec Aircore fleece from Lands End that I took to Alaska this year and the cost was $17. Not bad for 8.8oz. I also recently bought a Rab Polartec Classic 100wt fleece from STP and it was $32 and is 8oz. My Patagonia R1pullover (~2010) is 11.4oz. If you are using it as a base layer the Polartec power dry works great. I have some cap 4 and r1 pieces.

I thru hiked the PCT in 2014 and did quite well with keeping an eye on the long range weather forecast and changing out parts of my clothing system as needed as I hiked the trail. Some items I put in a bounce box to pick up and use at the next resupply, others I sent home, with a few of those items being mailed back to me later and way up the trail. With this years almost garanteed El Niño, be prepared for a good share of wet weather hiking ranging from cold & wet in the early desert and Mt. sections, as well as the Sierra from Kennedy Meadow (mile 702) to Tahoe (mile 1098) to warm & wet in other areas. You are way ahead of the average PCT'er by researching cold wet weather hiking now. Use this time between now and when you start your PCT hike, to hike in those condidions to nail down your clothing and equipment for the PCT and you will have a much better hike for it. What El Niño brings is warm wet weather for the most part but, it will become cold and wet when at elevation. You will be hiking at 6,000' just 42 miles from the border (Mt. Laguna) and 9,000' at mile160 (Mt. San Jacinto), 7,000' (Big Bear), 8,000 Tehachippi's, then the Sierra.

I think a Cap 4 garment is a great layer to carry along on any hike. In the summer it's my insulation layer/sleepwear/whatever layer for the SE. The rest of the year it's Awesome for sleepwear/mid layer/only layer for unexpected cold weather because it's warmer and just as light if not lighter than a midweight base. So, I would most definitely, without a doubt, no hesitation at all carry my Cap 4 on a thru of the PCT. It weighs less than 5oz for a small zip neck. 5oz for a little insurance/ super comfy sleepwear/town clothing is great! YMMV Sam

I can't hike in the R1 above 32d.

nm

between the two, Cap 4- R1 is a nice piece as mid-layer moving in really cold weather, but much too warm as a mid-layer any other time I've found I'm using my Cap 4 more as a base layer than a mid-layer; for shoulder season I'm finding a lightweight 100 wt jacket/pullover works better for me

I did about 1,100 miles on the PCT this year with a Cap 4 Hoody before injuries made me an "involuntary section hiker", and also have an R1 zip jacket that I use as a jacket when I'm back in the real world. While I agree with some of the folks above that it's not REALLY necessary to have that layer, it wound up being one of my favorite pieces of gear. (If not my very favorite piece of gear.) I liked the temperature range- I was comfortable sitting around in the mid/low 50s in it, and I could keep warm when moving in surprisingly chilly temperatures (low 40s, if not lower, IIRC), although it was easy to overheat in it when moving in between those ranges. It was also nice for adding some extra warmth to my down jacket on the colder nights. I could have definitely lived with the down jacket alone, but I got a ton of use out of the Cap 4 and never really questioned the weight. That said, I also found a surprising extra use for it- town shirt + towel. The Cap 4 was surprisingly comfortable in high temperatures (upper 80s/low 90s) as long as I didn't get too active. Combine that with the fact that the black didn't show dirt, I had something that made me look a good bit more presentable for going around in public. (My hiking shirt was a sponge for dirt and wouldn't give it up no matter how much I washed it.) It also worked reasonably well as my towel when I didn't have access to one (campground showers, some hostels, etc.)- just pat yourself down with it and throw it on as your shirt when it's done. I wouldn't take an R1 on the PCT- it's not warm enough to deal with the low end of the temps you'll see out there, and it's WAY too hot for a lot of activities. (I was sweating in it on a 55* day.) I love it for day to day wear in the fall when I'm walking to work, but it's not going to replace the Cap4/down jacket anytime soon.

If you are concerned about in camp warmth, and think that the ghost whisperer won't cut it for you, I would highly recommend the montbell mirage. I have one and for 3 season trips in the Seirra it's just luxurious and not that much heavier. You could get by with a lighter bag/quilt too by sleeping in it.

I think there could very well be times that a base layer and a shell doesn't quite cut it on the move (shoulder season in Montana almost always presents this)- this is where a mid-layer earns it's keep. In addition, this mid-layer can be added to your insulating layer in camp in particularly cool/cold weather. A 7-9 ounce insurance policy :)

For a do all layer i still really like the Driclime stuff from Marmot. Use it as your only layer on windy days that aren't too warm. Under a hard shell if its wet, cold, and blustery. I use mine from an everyday around town wear to running in stupid cold Michigan temps in the winter.

I did the PCT this year. I doubt you will ever need this extra layer while hiking. Tangentially, I ended up switching to the Alpine Houdini (a hybrid shell) about halfway through, and dropped both the wind shirt and rain shell I was carrying. I liked it enough to keep it through wet/chilly Washington. I hiked Washington with just a base layer of light merino and sometimes the hybrid shell. In wet weather, I was still a little damp both up top (some sweat) and bottom (some weather) but fine warmth-wise. I could adjust for comfort with hat/gloves/neck-gaiter. The full three layers on my core would have been way too warm. You will be moving and moving and moving. For me, a midweight fleece could have been switched out for the puffy I carried, and this would give you the option of warmer layers for hiking. I guess it depends whether you need the extra warmth of the puffy as part of your sleep system. Maybe that could be re-thought as well. Generally, don't commit to too much now. Avoid a purchase for now, especially if you are unsure. You will have many chances to adjust along the way, when you will know your preferences better. A little discomfort can be salved by the knowledge that you have some funds earmarked for your own optimal solutions.

I run a little cold, but I never wanted anything more than capilene 3 on the PCT. At least for hiking. I did carry a light down jacket for insulation. It weighed the same as the cap 3 shirt!

But the cap4 is lighter than the cap3, and warmer! So it must be better :)

My Cap 4 zip neck is equal in weight to my Midweight zip neck bases that are equivalent of Cap 2. It makes a great extra layer for sleep, town, insurance. Will You really feel an extra 6 oz or so? (The "compromise a couple ounces here and there and you end up with pounds" argument need not apply, we're talking about one item.) I don't think you will. Especially after the first 700 miles because you'll be so strong from hiking. I don't know why I'm arguing for it. I guess cause I love mine. Hey man, if you think you'll need/want it, then carry it. It really won't make a difference in how heavy your pack feels. Just don't carry an R1, I agree it's completely unnecessary for the weight. :-)

Just a slight correction – the Midweight stuff isn't equivalent to cap 2, it's equivalent to cap 3 and hasn't moved much in weight this year despite changing to a grid fabric… The Lightweight is the new cap 2 – I confirmed with Patagonia customer care because it's so light that I couldn't believe it could be as warm, but they claim it is. So this year you can get have sleepwear of a thermal weight zip neck and lightweight leggings for about the same weight of cap 2 for both from last year, or add another ounce or so and get the hooded thermal top (my plan). Alternatively, if you really don't want the warmer top but do want sleep wear you can go lightweight on both for ~7oz total in a men's medium which is pretty crazy light, e.g. I'm pretty sure my current merino top alone is greater than that… And hopefully the polygiene works ok for static only use in the bag :)

I was talking about general midweight base-layers and old Cap 2, and not the newer Pata stuff. The newer base-layers seem really nice though. I doubt you'll feel much difference in warmth between the new EW and old Cap 4 though. Just my observation.

I have an R1 hoody and it rarely gets used, even when I bring it along. It's just too hot to use when hiking in anything above freezing, and it's not as warm as a down or a synthetic midlayer that you would use for camp. I'm typically comfortable in just my Cap 3 and a hardshell if I'm active in anything above freezing. Even in freezing weather, I would much rather have a heavier weight base layer (like Cap4) combined with a hardshell rather than add another layer of redundant insulation like an R1 into the mix. In my opinion, you should only need two layers max (base+shell) when active in anything above freezing. Supplement that with a midlayer when stopped in rainy and cold conditions or in camp. Anything else is overkill. A three layer system like this will work for all but the coldest of conditions. Aside from what I've already mentioned about the R1 hoody, I don't like how it layers on top of my base layer. I have several base layers and the R1 seems to layer uncomfortably over all of them. Long sleeve base layers are a nightmare underneath it. It also seems impossible to take off without peeling off my base layer along with it. I would not get the pullover again. I've actually switched to using the R1 as a base layer for winter conditions instead of using it as a mid layer. That being said, there are probably better winter base layers to use than an R1. I just couldn't justify using it otherwise.

Just trying a tangent in this thread rather than starting a new one – what do people think of a Hooded Indie as a midlayer / sleep layer for the PCT instead of the Cap4 being proposed here? Weight is ~1oz heavier and I assume it's not as warm, but everyone seems to agree the cap4 is maybe overkill on that one and it may not dry as fast, but that hopefully isn't a huge issue on the PCT. Obvious upside is it will hardly need washing and also I would think a more comfortable sleeping experience… maybe slightly more 'normal' looking in town, but not much. Cost is a wash. Thoughts?

I think the Indie makes a fine mid-layer as long as the activity isn't overly aerobic, I would put the warmth factor relatively close to the Cap 4- it would definitely be worth considering for a long trip. The fit is very good, including hood and thumb loops and has a nice deep zipper (all of which also holds true for the Cap 4 hoody). little off the subject of mid-layers, but I've written Patagonia several times (w/ no luck) to consider offering a Merino 1 hoody- would make for a nice base layer and the addition of the Capilene to the merino means quicker drying times

Mike, have you considered the Merino Air hoody?