Primaloft Gold Down Blend jackets

Hi Rick, I have not given this much thought but will look into it :-)

Just already some quick thoughts: you've got the down clusters with the synthetic fibers between the down plumules. Assume that the synthetic fibers will degrade not that fast that way, but will eventually loose performance. Now, the CLO/oz of the Gold blend is equivalent to ± 670 FP down (I know they claim 750 but that is too optimistic). After the synthetic fibers loosing most of their performance, you will have mostly down left, from more then 700 FP but only 70% of the total. We don't know fillweights (yet) but assume 6 oz. in a jacket which gives a CLO of 2,57. After, I get a CLO of 2,18. As a reference, for a 6 oz. 800 FP jacket I get a CLO of 3,4 and for a jacket with e.g. 3 oz/yd² Apex I get a CLO of 1,47.

Stephen, happy I could stimulate your wallet ;-) Woubeir, can I assume you don't see much benefit in this down blend solution to the insulation conundrum faced in foul damp/wet conditions with temps ~10C to -5C on multi-day adventures?

Well, for temps beneath ~-2°C I choose down and if it's above that I choose synthetic. So for me, I don't see where it adds something. Which doesn't mean I'm against it; it's just that I see nothing that isn't already covered now. If a jacket with down blend filling looses insulation performance after some time, I doubt it still can keep me as warm as before or as warm as a dedicated down jacket with enough downfill. And if it's above that temp where humidity and the like begins to play a bigger role, nothing still beats pure synthetics.

In my experience DWR down helps fight ambient humidity but does little to fit internal humidity (aka sweat), and thus I don't see it having much practical value over conventional down in a jacket. It certainly isn't going to replace a synthetic fill coat under any circumstance. The PL Gold blend seems to be similar. Modest humidity fighting characteristics, but still at base a down coat. My more cynical interpretation is that the blending is a way to mitigate the recent increase in the cost of down, nothing more. I will say that the BD Hot Forge is impressively warm for it's weight and bulk, and after a year of regular use there has been no noticeable loss in loft or warmth.

" My more cynical interpretation is that the blending is a way to mitigate the recent increase in the cost of down, nothing more." Probably true. I am interested though in the mechanism(s) which make it possible for DWR down to help fight against ambient humidity but not against internal humidity.

"I am interested though in the mechanism(s) which make it possible for DWR down to help fight against ambient humidity but not against internal humidity." I should be more specific; in my experience DWR down resists humidity to a certain point, after which it is quickly overwhelmed much in the way conventional down is. Ambient humidity is less likely to pass this point.

I found this article from Gizmodo an interesting test of DWR down. http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/we-tested-waterproof-down-by-jumping-in-a-frozen-lake-1694953456

ha, ha, I read Gizmodo piece. Jumping in lake for a few minutes isn't a very good test of DWR down, but still a funny article : ) I'd be more interested in prolonged exposure to high humidity typical of what you'd actually find in use exercise wearing down until you sweat. for an hour or two. "accidentally" leave down garment where it gets exposed to rain or a puddle, overnight do both DWR and regular down and compare

@Dave C. The mechanism(s) behind that though remain still unanswered.

Yeah, I had the same thoughts re: OEM down cost when these pieces first started appearing a few years ago. But the empirical and anecdotal reports seem increasingly positive. Same with DWR down BUT there tends to be a cost penalty to the consumer for this technology (and for more complicated hybrid down/synth mapping too) while down blend seems to still offer the same cost advantages of typical synthetics. I was skeptical about Polartec Alpha too since "logically" we can get the same benefits with fleece and a windshell that was both lighter and cheaper. But since moving to the UK I have been doing more mountaineering-like activities and have found my Westcomb Tango to be superb in practice. So while it bugs me to admit it, sometimes the "armchair logic" does not always reflect the practical experiences. I'm sure when we start to see the new Powerwool baselayers I will suffer another crisis of confidence in my Cap 4 EW layers too!

I picked up the Montane Black Ice 2.0 which used the Primaloft Gold Down Blend insulation. Have not had a chance to put it to use yet, but I like the idea of it using a combination of Primaloft Gold in addition to DWR treated down. Admittedly, it's not as comfortable the Chonos Ultra Down Jacket which I had to give away (it was too small). Eric

I think that the naming is independant of the fibers they use and that e.g. Gold Insulation Down Blend doesn't necessarily include Gold fibers.

Still looking at currently available new insulating technology and noticed this NEW Primaloft Gold Luxe EXLCUSIVE to Montane so not much 3rd party info available except a BPL article saying it has a CLO of .93 when WET! Isn't that a little better than standard Primaloft ONE/Gold when DRY? But how is it different? https://www.montane.co.uk/en/about-montane/technologies/primaloft/primaloft-gold-luxe https://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/ispo-2015-pullan.html#.VjnxUjbFK00 And the Montane jacket using it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLldXo_d6II

Luxe is a loose fill insulation, like Thermoball, that should look and feel like down. The DRY CLO/oz is even higher but less then 1.

Actually had forgotten about Thermoball since it was TNF. Wonder how similar it is to RAB's 3M Cirrus?

For Cirrus, look for 3M™ Thinsulate™ Featherless Insulation. While Thermoball are really balls of insulation, this more resembles actual down clusters.

Isn't all synthetic "featherless" insulation? I think these fabric OEMS only change the name or tweak and existing product in response to OEM demands to be "unique" as these are all still short staple fibers and very little CLO improvement over the original Primaloft and what there is probably comes at the expense of durability.

True, it's only a name. These insulations are however different in that ordinary short staple insulations consist of battings and these 'new' ones are a loose fill insulation. Interestingly, blends like the ones from Primaloft were developed too because they found out already a long time ago that loose fill insulations weren't that durable.

Some more Google-fu on down blend today yielded a nugget of info for the BPL collective. Its a phd thesis from Leeds Uni candidate dated April 2015. 200+pages exploring duck, goose, and eider down properties along with some studies on down blends near the end. Unfortunately, it does NOT touch on water resistance properties. http://tinyurl.com/allweknowaboutdown

Nice find Rick! I'm surprised nobody has commented on it so far. After reading the 200 or so pages, what i came away was this. There aren't too many significant differences in general and in thermal efficiency between duck down and goose down per same fill power, BUT surprisingly, goose down resists compression slightly better than duck down presumably due to the more trilobal and hollow characteristics of the main barbs as compared to the more oval and solid barbs of duck down. Duck down fibers/barbs-barbules has slightly higher tensile strength, presumably because the barbs are solid verse being hollow. However, Eider down has some significant differences, potentially positive and negative as compared to goose down and duck down. It has more mass per volume, because it has more barbules per barb though both the barbs and barbules are slightly thicker/wider than both goose and duck down (that's a surprise, because smaller barbs and barbules equal more air trapped/stilled aka more thermally efficient). Eider Down has higher tensile strength than regular duck down. Basically Eider down is tougher than both regular duck and goose down, and significantly resists compression (noticeably more than even goose down). However, it could have the negative potential to overly "mat" and lose some loft because the barbs and barbules become overly entwined easier (they are more hooked and there's more of them). Sounds like Eider down is most appropriate and efficient for extreme cold weather parkas and jackets, especially where significant wind will be a factor. It's a bit heavier material. High quality goose down is best for sleeping bags and quilts, but high quality duck down would be an acceptable substitute, unless you can get higher fill power goose down. They also went into the issue of overfill, and significantly over filling baffles does not decrease thermal efficiency, until a ridiculous point of stuffing is reached and then conduction of the keratin based material can start to offset the insulation of trapped air. Over stuffing will actually increase thermal efficiency because it prevents radiation heat loss. I think BPL already had a sense of that though. I read it rather late last night, so i may be missing some important points.

Yes, well after seeing his BPL citations I thought I had read this guys material before. Put out a nice 3-part article a few years ago on UK Climbing, http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5105

Nothing definive, but I thought you lads like to know: IDFL did shake-tests with untreated down and found that while DWR down performs better in these tests, untreated down showed an unexpected high resiliency to moisture.

Natural down has worked for a long time. I am not surprised to read this.