Dec 8, 2007 at 3:18 pm #1226197
Okay, a slightly dramatic and silly title for a post but I am hoping to get some advice on sleeping in a bivy.
I recently ordered a MLD Soul Side Zip Bivy with the eVent top and a MLD Silnylon Poncho Tarp.
This will be the first bivy that I have owned and used.
I am trying to transition from using a Contrail Tarptent to a Bivy/Poncho Tarp.
I notice the following disclosure and warning on MLD's website:
NOTE: Complete head enclosure in any bivy sack is not recommended. Proper instruction is required and is not provided by MLD.
So my question is:
How do you sleep in a completely enclosed/zippered up Bivy without suffocating yourself?
I ask because I could see a situation where I am in the bivy without a tarp and it suddenly starts raining. It might be necessary to zip up the entire bivy to keep the rain from coming in.
Any information would be appreciated.
-TonyDec 8, 2007 at 5:44 pm #1411828
@pivvayLocale: Rocky Mountains
turn upside down and breath out a small opening ;)
No one said bivying without a tarp is all roses. Haha.Dec 8, 2007 at 7:46 pm #1411839
@garkjrLocale: Southwestern Ohio
"…in a situation where I'm in a bivy without a tarp…"
Why would you be in that situation? When I use a bivy, the tarp automatically goes along. If the weather is at all dubious, the tarp gets pitched. I might still put the bivy outside the tarp for some stargazing, but when it starts to cloud up or rain, it only takes a few seconds to drag it under the tarp.Dec 8, 2007 at 7:53 pm #1411840
Funny that I should have posted this today….when I got home my Bivy and Poncho were waiting for me.
Now that I have had a chance to lay it out and put my sleeping pad and sleeping back, I can see that I would just leave a small opening to let some air in.
As for why I would not pitch the tarp if it were to suddenly rain, due to my inexperience.
I have never used a tarp before.
Now that I have my Poncho/Tarp, looks like I will be spending some time getting familiar with pitching it.
I realize that my question was a bit silly in hind sight, but I am relatively new at this.
Thanks again for taking the time to reply back to me.
-TonyDec 8, 2007 at 7:57 pm #1411842
Roleigh MartinBPL Member
@marti124Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
The Tarptent Contrail is nice and provides the functionality of a tarp and a bivy, so why did you not like it? Why did you decide to switch, how much weight are you saving?Dec 8, 2007 at 8:31 pm #1411843
It's not a silly question, Tony. Suppose you didn't want to pitch a tarp? Bivies are popular in mountaineering also, where a lot of the places they're used aren't suitable to pitching tarps. So apparently there are people who are using bivies in storm conditions and apparently living to tell about it. I'm also interested in how safe/unsafe it is to sleep in a bivy completely zipped up (as I am in the same boat as you in wanting to get an MLD eVent bivy for the ability to use without a tarp). I don't really feel like your original question has been answered, though. Chris pointed out that you can turn the bivy upside down but does that apply to a waterproof-breathable bivy like the eVent ones made my MLD? Isn't eVent a "breathable" fabric and shouldn't it allow carbon dioxide to diffuse out and oxygen to diffuse in before levels become lethal? I don't know…I was confused by that note on the MLD website too (though I sort of suspect it's a joke).Dec 8, 2007 at 8:41 pm #1411845
@dangLocale: Pacific Northwet
You can always use a headtent. Here is a freestanding model:
Make sure you read the description.Dec 8, 2007 at 9:16 pm #1411846
John S.BPL Member
You should never fully enclose yourself in ANY bivy. No joke.Dec 8, 2007 at 9:19 pm #1411847
Sounds like you know what you're talking about. Could you explain why not?Dec 8, 2007 at 9:45 pm #1411850
John S.BPL Member
All or nearly all bivy sack makers will have a warning not to fully enclose yourself in, but leave a gap of about 6 inches to prevent suffocation. You also run the risk of major condensation when breathing inside bivy sacks. Makers of sleeping bag covers not using waterproof/breathable material may not have same warning..dunno.
check product info for this bivy.Dec 9, 2007 at 5:09 am #1411862
Sleeping in a fully sealed bivy sack is indeed dangerous. There are real case reports of people dying inside their bivies. Asphyxiation was assumed in these cases – (I have never seen a coroners report verifying the cause of death) but I think this is a relatively good assumption.
The reasons below may help explain why this is a bad idea, but they are conjectural, I haven't seen any good studies verifying these issues (if anyone has please let us know)
Firstly, in sub freezing temperatures the water vapour will freeze in and on the bivy material making it in essence completely air tight. Obviously this is not a good time to be fully enclosed in your bag.
Secondly, in above freezing conditions the question is, will the breathability of the particular fabric allow enough air exchange to support your respiration. For example, you could take a cotton bag or clothing, put it over your head and continue to breath just fine. Now try this with Event, Momentum, Goretex or any of the breathable materials – you have to blow and suck really hard to get air to move through the fabric, and even then you can't get enough air to survive.
Thirdly, in above freezing conditions water vapour condensing on the surface may impede breathability too. Certainly, using the above example, if you wet the cotton you will no longer be able to breath through it. It is possible a layer of condensation on the breathable fabrics will impede diffusion of air (although these fabrics are much more hydrophobic than cotton, at some point the pores are going to be saturated with vapour.)
Again this is all conjecture. It would be interesting to do some studies and monitor the actually CO2 and O2 levels in a sealed bivy. Perhaps this has been done, anyone know?
DougDec 9, 2007 at 5:41 am #1411864
@garkjrLocale: Southwestern Ohio
I may have misunderstood your post about being in a bivy without a tarp. I read your original question to mean that you didn't have a tarp available; your later post makes me think you meant you had a tarp along, but hadn't pitched it. In that case, you'd throw the tarp over the bivy to keep it dry while you rigged the tarp quickly over it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.Dec 9, 2007 at 11:05 am #1411888
i have a terra nova double hooped bivi –its top material is goretex flo2 gas permeable–when using without hoops i have often had to zip myself in completely when its rained in the middle of the night–no instructions that advised not to— in cold conditions i put in the hoops and my head is under the mesh of the " door " which slopes at 45 degrees –watching cold snow bouncing of the mesh 2 inches above your face is soporific—if i have to zip the material of the door up completely there is a small mesh covered opening above my feet for ventilation however without hoops in this would not work–i do not have a tarp so using in rain is "challenging"Dec 9, 2007 at 11:23 am #1411891
"Again this is all conjecture. It would be interesting to do some studies and monitor the actually CO2 and O2 levels in a sealed bivy. Perhaps this has been done, anyone know?"
Here's a simple way to test it: rig up a candle to burn inside a sealed up eVENT or Gore-tex chamber. If the candle keeps burning indefinitely, then apparently there is some diffusion of CO2 and O2 happening. Whether there's enough diffusion for a breathing human to be "safe" in a sealed up bivy would require some more sophisticated tests.Dec 9, 2007 at 1:09 pm #1411904
To answer some of the questions that came up in response to my post.
I love my Contrail Tarp tent and have no complaints.
I am hoping to use the MLD Soul Side Zip eVent top Bivy and a MLD Silnylon Poncho Tarp as a means to cut weight.
My hope is that I can use the Bivy in place of the Contrail , use the Ponhco/Tarp in place of my rain jacket, and I am hoping to be able to swap my 2 lb 3 oz. 15 Degeee Marmot Helium EQ bag with my 1 lb. 40 Marmot Atom bag to save weight.
The key is: Will the bivy provide more warmth vs. the Contrail and enhance the warmth of the sleeping system?
Optimistically, I might save up to 2 lbs with this setup.Dec 9, 2007 at 1:23 pm #1411907
Another question that came up…why would I not use a tarp with the bivy?
In part, because I have never used a tarp before in my life, it is all new to me.
I figured that if I completely screw things up, I would have just have the bivy to protect me. Hence why I opted for the extra protection of an eVent top on the bivy.
I also have a seam sealed/"waterproof" Marmot Helium EQ.
I've spent a night in a raging storm in my Contrail where one of the stakes pulled up out of the mud and I spent the night under my collapsed tent in a puddle of mud. Thank god I had seam sealed my sleeping bag. I spent a long night literally curled up in my bag with the head area completely cinched up tight to keep water from coming into my bag. I did manage stay dry and warm. I looked like Han Solo in carbonite the next morning with the tent collapsed on me the next morning.
The Contrail did fine, I just did not secure my stake in the ground well enough. I should have put something on top of the stake to further secure it. Not the tent's fault. User error!
After that experience, I am really cautious and paranoid about water and getting soaked.
My observation about the Contrail is that because of the need for ventilation to prevent condensation, it does not provide much warmth. I hope that the bivy will trap more body heat to allow me to use a lighter sleeping bag.
P.S. I wanted to say that the online subscription alone is worth every penny just for the great information that I have gotten from the forums. I am a newbie with only about 1 year experience going light weight. Thanks to everyone for the feed back for my newbie question.
-TonyDec 9, 2007 at 1:26 pm #1411908
robert—when sealed up in v cold weather i burn a nightlight for light and heat?—if that rear ventilation hole is too small i guess me and the candle will both be extinguishedDec 9, 2007 at 5:33 pm #1411937
@foodLocale: Colorado Rockies
I have an ID Unishelter and a MLD Alpine bivy. I leave the bivy unzipped about a foot and prop it open with a water bottle.
Yes, a bivy adds about 10 degrees over a hammock or tarptent style shelter.Dec 9, 2007 at 6:23 pm #1411941
So what does all this weigh? I never solo like it appears many or most posters do, so I nearly always have a tent which divided by 2 makes the weight rather low (for the value)… So what does the tarp/bivy/stakes/guys/etc. weigh?
– JakeDec 9, 2007 at 11:30 pm #1411980
Given that I using the "heaviest" MLD Bivy at 12 to 13 oz. and a 9 oz poncho tarp, the weight is pretty much the same as the solo Henry Shire Contrail Tarp Tent that I have been using.
The weight savings that I see is found in not having to carry a 12 oz rain jacket.
I am also hoping that by using a bivy over a tarp tent, I can reduce weight by using a my Marmot Atom 40 degree/1 lb sleeping bag vs. my 2 lb 3 oz Marmot Helium EQ 15 degree bag.
Optimistically, I am hoping to cut 1 lb 15 oz from my setup.
Basically, this is an expensive experiment to try to save almost 2 lbs of weight.
I don't travel solo and don't plan to in the future for safety reasons, but I do setup my gear on the assumption that I solo/totally self reliant.
P.S. Calling this is an expensive experiment is not a knock against MLD. The bivy an poncho tarp that I received is extremely well made. The sewing is tight and straight. It is obvious that a lot of care was put into making it. I can't wait to get myself into bad weather with it. :)
-TonyDec 10, 2007 at 6:37 am #1411991
Doug JohnsonBPL Member
@djohnsonLocale: Washington State
Here's my planned setup for this coming Spring (I don't have all the pieces yet):
Mountain Laurel Designs Spectralite.60 (Cuben) poncho 3.6
Titanium Goat 6" carbon fiber tent stakes (5) 1.0
Bozeman Mountain Works Aircore 1 spectra 0.1
Mountain Laurel Designs Litesoul- long 4.5
So that means the total shelter and rainwear combination weighs 9.2 ounces.
I've used a similar (and slightly heavier) setup for a few years now and I totally love it. It's great in spindrift and windblown snow conditions, the bivy really helps to hold in the heat when using a quilt, and it's a very versatile setup. The poncho works fine in all but the windiest conditions. I walked through a crazy torrential downpour/lightning storm/windfest on the Long Trail in Vermont a couple of years back and the poncho was marvelous.
When camping with two, I use a Gossamer Gear/Tarptent Squall Classic which weighs about 19 ounces (It doesn't get much lighter than this). My poncho tarp/bivy setup doesn't save much weight when compared to sharing that tent with two…but I get to leave my rain jacket at home and I'm warmer in my quilt with the bivy.
Just one way of doing things!
DougDec 10, 2007 at 9:33 am #1412010
I started using a breathable Bivy 3 years ago, largely due to the great info on this site. I've used the Bivy stand alone in 80 degree weather, with a down bag, with a quilt, and with a synth bag.
I've used it in my Tarptent, under the stars, under a poncho tarp, and under a Gatewood cape.
A quilt and Poncho tarp has become my favorite setup.
For this year my Setup has changed to a MLD Cuben Poncho tarp, new MOYG quilt, and a new MOYG Bivy. I'm using Spin cloth on the floor instead of Cuben because I'm pretty tough on my Bivy's …. I ripped the bottom of the last one and it's nice to be able to just sew in a new floor when you need to. With the price of Cuben I'd carry a groundcloth to protect it and eat up my weight savings.
Poncho Tarp 3.9 oz
Lazervis Ti Stakes 2.0 oz
MYOG quilt 17.5 oz
MYOG side zip Bivy 6.0 oz
total of 29oz for my shelter, sleeping system, and raingear. Less than 12 oz for my shelter and raingear setup.
Works for me!Dec 10, 2007 at 9:58 am #1412012
@ken_bennettLocale: southeastern usa
We're talking about using a breathable bivy under a tarp, right? Something with a very water resistant top fabric to protect the sleeping bag from side splash, dew/frost, etc., but not totally waterproof like a mountaineering bivy. The tarp would cover the head and allow dry entry/exit.
So why are most breathable bivys made using the same design as mountaineering bivys? The same tiny cross-chest slit to wriggle in and out, the same zipper that closes off all access to outside air (and causes massive condensation *inside* the bivy from your own breath). Maybe a tiny strip of mesh that fits in the zipper, but no more, and maybe a tiny side zipper. We can do better.
My homemade bivy has a top made from Momentum 90 fabric — but everything from the chest to the top of the head is noseeum mesh. The zipper runs around the circumference from the right shoulder around the top of the head and down to the left hip. I get terrific breathability, bug protection, excellent rain/side splash/front/dew protection, and easy entry and exit. I can star gaze at night through the noseeum mesh, and I've never – not once — had a drop of condensation inside, even when other bivy users a few feet away were soaked.
I knew what I wanted, and my wife helped me actually make it. We made our own pattern, and ended up with a decent result, given that we didn't have any experience with this sort of MYO gear. The total cost for materials was about $60 from the thru-hiker site.
The bivy weighs 8 oz in its mesh stuff sack. You can see a photo at http://tinyurl.com/33nw6a
–KenDec 10, 2007 at 2:27 pm #1412044
aka meteor bivy that can be seen on SMD's website under MYOG. inlcudes a pattern and directions which you can easily modify to your own liking.Dec 10, 2007 at 2:46 pm #1412049
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