Relationship Advice…and Tarps

[Nick Otis]

We currently use a Copper Spur UL3 because of its comfort with two people and a 65lb dog. I've thought about transitioning to a tarp/tarp tent for the obvious weight savings. The girlfriend isn't exactly open to the idea of a tarp or a tarp tent because she likes the psychological comfort of a closed tent ("I like it to be one whole enclosed area"). We also use a twin bag, so a hiking pole in the middle on some models is a barrier. Any advice out there for how you transitioned someone to a tarp/tarp tent? Or maybe how you, yourself transitioned? She's a keeper, so leaving her for the tarp isn't an option :-P

[Ralph Burgess]

From what I've seen, her feeling is common – I'd guess it's shared by the majority of hikers (perhaps not the majority of BPL-ers). Most especially when hiking in the desert, I'm always astonished that the majority of people seem to want to go to the trouble of pitching a fully enclosed REI-type tent, even if the overnight low is going to be 65F, and the probability of rain is obviously zero. When I tell people that I usually don't pitch any shelter at all unless it looks like rain, the most common reaction is concern about critters – bears, lions, spiders, scorpions, take your pick. I don't know to what extent those concerns are rational – obviously a tent won't stop a determined bear, but perhaps it might discourage a marginally curious one? Before you spend a lot of money on a tarp system, I'd suggest first trying out cowboy camping with her, in a suitable location and with the right weather of course. She may come to love looking up the stars and feeling closer to her surroundings, or it may be clear that she just hates it. If that works, I suppose the next step is educating her that a good tarp system in skilled hands can actually work better in wet weather, that a fully enclosed tent can lead to horrible amounts of condensation. But in my experience the weather/warmth issue is secondary to the psychological illusion of protection and security that an enclosed tent seems to give. I use the old design Zpacks shelters with the removable bucket groundsheet (not the sewn-in groundsheet) because of my preference for cowboy camping. A bucket groundsheet like this with high sides can be a barrier against creepy-crawlies (perhaps more psychological than real), if that's the worry. ETA I mean "bathtub" not bucket of course

[Cody Hallenbeck]

I'm not sure how tarp tent like structures don't count. I can get the desire to be enclosed for privacy and weather protection(though I mostly hike with flat tarps), but something like a Zpacks hexamid is pretty enclosed. If you don't need bug protection for some trips you could go very light by using a bathtub floor. Definitely go for a shelter that doesn't place the pole in the middle—there are to many good options that place the pole outside the sleep area, and snuggling is definitely an important priority.

[Greg Mihalik]

In addition to the "security" of an enclosed area, you need to address the issue of condensation. The tent body provides a tactile buffer to the wet fly that you don't get with a tarp. Condensation will be the same, but the tent "seems" dryer. Before you make the transition point this out – the fly is wet, the netting is wet, and you have to be just as careful in a "tent" as in a "tarp". Education and buy-in is 80% of the battle. Consider any high volume, 2 door, shaped tarp, with netting and a floor (e.g. Zpacks Duplex). It will feel just as enclosed, has a Lot of room, and can cut your 60 ounces to 20 ounces.

[Link .]

I also don't understand why a tarptent is out as an option when they are a fully enclosed shelter? HERE is a video showing the different options, the second tent shown is a taptent. You and your girlfriend might enjoy the whole series of videos and articles on Cleverhiker if you have not already seen them.

[Ryan Tucker]

If you don't mind the coin a MLD Cuben Grace Duo with the Inner net will easily hold to adults and a 65 lb dog. It give you nice views via the tarp, but also the in closed feeling of a tent.

[Nick Otis]

Re: Ralph, cowboy camping–I also read somewhere on BPL that you can practice sleeping outside in the yard, slowly removing layers of "psychological comfort" until you're eventually okay with minimalism. And yes, to buy a whole new system is expensive…I gulped and then consulted my BPL friends :) As suggested, I was thinking the removable bathtub floor idea. I feel like it's a good option because eventually the bathtub floor can be weaned away to an "as needed for conditions" basis only, and then you're left with an even lighter set up, but you don't really waste any money. Good to have affirmation. I'll show her those videos, too, Anna. Thanks! As she gets over her fears…I guess that bring me to: Is the bathtub setup still a feasible thing to do with a large dog in the mix, aka 2.5 people? Was looking for a 'two person plus' size, but most of the bathtub models seem to be solo or duo sizes. Any suggestions? I know the pyramid style can be bigger, but most of our camping is in wooded areas. Been looking over sites and forums and my head is spinning. Thanks! Appreciate the help navigating.

[Nick Otis]

Ryan, Just saw your post. I can't find the inner net you referred to. Is it MLD or another brand? And as for price point, cuben would be nice…just have to be really careful on how much we spend in case it doesn't work out! Used will probably be the route we go. But…Franny (she has a name!) is concerned about how see-through cuben tents look. Still see through with a mesh inner?

[Ryan Tucker]

I think if you look through Gear Swap there is a used Cuben Duo with a Sil Inner. The inner tent is called the Serenity Inner Net under the Tarps link. You can't see through the cuben tarp but it allows some light to enter the tarp. The front door 3/4 and back of the net tent are solid. Another options a bit heavier is a Lighterheart Duo. If you buy MLD you won't have any issues reselling. You can also get the Grace Duo Sil tarp a bit heavier but much cheaper. Here is a Patrol Tarp which has the rain beak. I don't think it is needed but some people prefer it. MLD Patrol Tarp In the 2nd picture you can see the inner tent inside the tarp. MLD Site MLD Cuben Duo MLD Net Duo MLD Sil Duo

[Jake D]

Take a look at Bilgy Tents. My Gf sewed one for us out of Silnylon and noseeum mesh for when we backpack together. Pretty good size area for 2. Poles go on the ends like an A frame tarp so they will not be in the way http://www.questoutfitters.com/patterns-tent,sleeping%20bag-cart.htm about halfway down that page

[Paul Wagner]

My wife shares the same concerns. She likes the netting for bugs. She likes the full tent for "privacy" even though we often camp miles from anyone else. And she likes the closed tent because she says that she doesn't want to wake up with an animal licking her face (except me, of course!) But on our last trip we were in a very isolated area, and the weather was darned near perfect. And the stars had been spectacular for the whole trip…and I convinced her to sleep out under the stars. So far, so good!

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Funny, we switched from a Tarptent Rainshadow II to the BA Copper Spur UL3. The biggest advantages were: Smaller camp footprint and much easier to re-position Better stability is high winds Much better condensation control Duel sided entry and not having to negotiate around the poles More useable space For us, the BA Copper Spur UL3 has been the better choice. My 2 cents.

[Nick Otis]

Ryan, thanks for taking the time to provide all that info. I can agree on where the beak and back might not be needed, although maybe that's what my girlfriend would need to feel more "protected." Ah ha! Jake, hadn't seen this yet, thank you! I like the concept. Easy to do? Paul, hmm maybe we have the same girl…what's her name?? Kidding, but glad you made progress. I'm looking forward to doing the same. Jon, good to consider. The UL3 is convenient, albeit a little heavier than some tarptent options. It fits our dog very easily, and we can let her in on her own side without her stepping on our sleeping bags. Long story short, our 65lb dog needs to sleep in the tent with us. I'm still nervous that a duo-sized inner won't have enough room. What are your thoughts on that? I really appreciate all the info everyone!

[Mike In Socal]

If you want to experiment without spending money, set up your Copper Spur with the fly and groundsheet only.

[Nick Otis]

Yeah that's a great idea, I was also considering that option too. I just have to purchase some grommet tabs for the Tyvek.

[Jake D]

"Jake, hadn't seen this yet, thank you! I like the concept. Easy to do?" Need to be fairly decent at sewing? there are some spots where a few things attach at once so you need to have some skills for that. mine is good at that stuff (knitter and weaver too)

[Ryan Tucker]

You can always using masking tape to mark out the floor dimensions on your carpet and set your sleeping pads inside to see if you and the dog will fit.

[Nick Otis]

^This guyyy. Smart and simple. Thanks all!

[Bob Shaver]

A tent made by tarptent.com is different from a tarp, or a tarp tent. I have a squall II, and its big enough for 2. My wife is claustrophobic, and she is OK with it. It has a floor, mesh all around, and zippered doors, and no poles inside the tent. It weighs around 2 lbs. Big enough for 2 and a big dog? Take a look at tarptent.com. Anything they have is lighter than most others. For a tree standing tent, the MSR Freelite is pretty nice. Its 2 lb 13 oz, and costs $439. I've been testing it for awhile. It definitely works for 2 people, but the dog might not work. It does have awesome vestibules, if the dog can stay in the vestibule. For a similar design to the MSR Freelite, the Nemo Dagger 2P is a bit bigger, weighs a bit more. Its very weather proof, and you could set it up with just a foot print and the fly. 4 lbs 6 oz. The Nemo Dagger 3P is also awesome, and could sleep 2 and a dog. Its a skosh bigger and heaver, though. For just a tarp, the Mountainsmith mountain shelter tarp is pretty nice, much cheaper, and feels like a "tent" because the edges can be set close to the ground. There is a pole inside the tent however.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

I like the enclosed tent for two main reasons: 1) It provides space for my entire body that is protected from mosquitoes. This means I don't have to patrol my ankles while my head is safe. I can lie naked and stick my arms and legs out of my bag if I want. 2) It provides protection from wind. I do not have to worry that my things will blow away in the night if a wind picks up. There's one more reason: 3) If we're camping with others a full-enclosed tent provides privacy for changing your clothes. If conditions are right for sleeping under the stars, then a tarp is not needed. Otherwise a tent will do what a tarp will do with the above advantages. Probably the only condition where a tarp is better than a tent is rain.

[Nick Otis]

Good to hear people's perspectives, suggestions, and pros and cons. Trying hard to cut weight but keep my hiking partner happy :)

[Lori P]

I get this allllllll the time, whether I am in my hammock or cowboy camping. People actually bother to worry that I'm going to be cold (they think the tent is so much warmer – I'm sure the difference is there, it's just immaterial to me since I know how to stay warm without it) or that animals will bother me (nylon is nothing to a determined animal, not that they listen to that, since irrational fear is irrational). I have had precisely one encounter with bugs, and one encounter with a critter. They were both my fault. I could have camped somewhere else and not had a mouse skitter over me – there were obvious holes around the tree roots two feet from me, and it was a really, really heavily used campsite. As for the ant bites… I could have camped somewhere other than on top of them…. But I did not care! And I survived, did not even suffer at all, and enjoyed both trips in spite of it, since being afraid of either of those creatures is just not something I have ever bothered with. I am more likely to die in a car accident on the way to the trailhead. The vast majority of animal issues people have in the continental USA are caused by bees…. and I'm not allergic. I have never had any animal or bug bother me in a hammock… an energetic marmot ran under me once. Nor have I lost anything to wind, since there are plenty of ways to anchor things, or store them. I use a report written by Dr. Langley in my backpacking class, to demonstrate the difference between irrational fear and real risk – everyone who comes in the door thinks the bears will eat them. The report is here: http://www.rexano.org/Statistics/animal_fatalities_usa.pdf There have been fatalities due to captive bears in California, but no wild bear related deaths. Incidents are most often related to food storage issues such as the one related in RJ Secor's The High Sierra. Hanta virus and the like aren't even going to be a problem where the rodents aren't habituated.

[Ralph Burgess]

Well, that's a new one. I get that reaction when I'm cowboy camping — but how on earth can people think that you're more exposed to critters in a hammock? Bears I suppose, but surely being off the ground must be better for everything else (even if the fears are irrational anyway).

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