Cold Female sleeper needs warmer bag for all seasons! WM Versalite or Antelope?

What is UNDER you is far more important than what is over you when it comes to retaining your body heat. Thermarest makes several pads you might consider. http://www.cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/Mattress-Selection-Guide In descending order by R value (higher is better): NeoAir XTherm MAX: 15 oz. R = 5.7 $200 Women's Prolite Plus: 20 oz. R = 4.2 $100 Women's NeoAir XLite: 12 oz. R = 3.9. $160 Given your susceptibility to cold, cost consideration is a far distant second to insulating value. There are other insulated down-filled mats on the market that could also do the job. As with ANY air-filled mat, ALWAYS carry the manufacturer's repair kit.

Ah, thanks, Bob. I have the NeoAir. I will look into getting one that has a higher R rating. You really think it will make that big of a difference?

Bob is right about the sleeping pad. A good warm pad is often overlooked and you will be cold in any bag if you don't have an adequate pad. Another overlooked item in that kind of bag is what you were wearing on your head. In my quilts I can tell a big difference with a insulated balaclava over a fleece hat. You may not sleep as cold as you think as the z packs bags are "rated" for men and women tend to sleep a bit colder then men. Remember too that both WM and FF bags are rated for men (even the FF Women's bags). You will find that with most bag makers so buy accordingly. My wife has an accurately rated 15* Marmot 5'-6" Women's Helium (now sold as the Xenon) that has 26oz of down in it. My larger 6' Mountain Hardwear Phantom 0 has 28oz of down and I have used it comfortably down to its rating. As a female you just need more insulation. My wife brings a big down coat when I bring a light Montbell Jacket and she won't go out much below 30*.

I have a bit of experience thru hiking, so I know a lot about eating before bed, taking a piss before bed, hot water bottles, thermal layers, clothing with bag. I've tried it all. I had a 20 degree zpacks and had to return it for the 10. I have tried my boyfriend's 20 degree feathered friends. It felt equivalent to the 10 degree zpacks. I sewed two marathon emergency wraps together to create a body sleeve and when too cold, I use that and I get warm enough. I sleep with smart wool thermal layers, socks, and mountain hardware ghost whisperer down jacket, and on occasion I have slipped my legs into my bf's down jacket sleeves and have zipped the jacket around my waist and legs. This helps a lot. I have slept with handwarmers. I have a loki balacklava hat. I think I need a warmer bag. I know women sleep colder. My gf has a 15 degree helium marmot and I've slept in that before and definitely found it a lot warmer than the 20 degree bag I used to have. I am still interested, even if I get a higher R rated thermarest, to get a warmer bag and keep wondering about the Versalite 10 degree or the Antelope.

You could also try just putting a closed cell foam mat (those cheap blue mats) on top of your NeoAir. I found it made a huge different when I slept on a BA IAC at 25 degrees (it was no warmer than 25 degrees all night). Without it I was uncomfortably cold. I decided to experiment so I would know what actually works. On top of the mat was much better than under it and, of course, without it. And, as always, make sure to eat enough before going to bed. And, congratulations on being a survivor.

Hi Annie. Firstly, congrat's on your victory! I've had both the Antelope and the Versalite. The Versalite should be plenty warm for what you've described. I just packed mine an hour ago for a backpack elk hunt here in the Northern Rockies 10/23. I've had mine in the single digits fine, and at 54 YO I don't sleep as warm as I did in my 30's. My wife and her girlfriend both use the 20* Alpinlite here in Montana into September and do well, and both are in their 50's. IMO, the added weight and extra down of the Antelope isn't needed for what you describe. Get your Versalite with "overfill" (I've had 4 WM bags and always bet them overfilled). Hermit's Hut gives overfill for no extra charge. Best, Brad

i'd go with the antelope (which is a bag i currently own). when talking sleeping temperature and making bag recommendations, there's no one good, much less perfect answer some third party can give you other than has been said above and below, make sure your pad is sufficent.

I've got a Sequoia GWS I'd sell to you for $350 plus shipping if you're interested.

Annie, try this simple experiment at home. Get your Neo Air out put it on hard floor if you have (not carpet) and sleep on it using your sleeping bag. The next night sleep on top of your bed using the same sleeping bag. Take note of the difference (if any) the insulation on the second night makes to you. Most of the threads I see about sleeping cold (inside a bag that should be good enough) involve inadequate bottom insulation .

Details not needed, but if you are a relatively small woman make sure you are getting a "smallish" sleeping bag. The extra volume of a typical bag would be harder to heat and to keep warm, plus every time you move you set the "bellows" into action. +1 substantial for bottom insulation (R6 for starters.)

"but if you are a relatively small woman make sure you are getting a "smallish" sleeping bag." This is a very good point, which would make the Sequoia a poor choice for you, as it's a wide cut bag. I like to curl up. :-)

Thanks everyone! I feel tender by your congrats and help. Yay victory! And that was Geesh, 7 years ago when I was a wee 35 year old…. Any heck, Great points re the bag and sleeping cold. I'm a regular old medium sized female (5'5" and prob 135-140) I def will do the floor experiment (I have concrete floors) and I will plan on getting a R6 rated pad. Maybe that is where I start and then take that out and try it in Washington this fall. I def like this idea of getting the WM versalite with FREEEEEE overfill! Sweet. Keep the advice coming! I love it :)

The wife and I are cold sleepers and use a Versalite/xtherm combo for temps down to 20F easily and switch to quilts and regular xlites for warmer temps. The Versalite is not a super restrictive bag so you can have an extra layer inside for even colder temps. As stated, the xtherm is a BIG part of boosting the warmth. It can also be used year round if you can only afford to have one mat. Being a cold sleeper I will gladly sacrifice about anything in my pack for a comfortable nights sleep, even if it means jumping in the bag earlier. Good luck, jimmyb

I also sleep cold. Here's what works for me in the Sierra up to about 10-12,000 feet: I use an Exped Synmat UL 7 pad as the bottom layer, on tent floor. Then I put a Gossamer Gear Thinlight pad on top of my Exped pad. Then I sleep in my short Versalite (as I'm only 5'0" I can use the short bag). If I expect really cold conditions I use a second Thinlight pad. (Added weight is slight). One pad on the floor of my Hexamid then the Exped synmat, then a second Thinlight on top and finally my Versalite. Usually I only use one Thinlight, however. For me it is definitely better, if using only one Thinlight, if I put it on top of my Exped pad. I tried it the other way and I noticed a difference and I got colder. I wear merino wool top, bottom and socks, and a beanie. I add my down jacket only if necessary. For me the Versalite allows just enough room to wear what I need without excessive space. I'm 73 so I don't do well if I'm cold when backpacking.

I get cold easier these days thanks to blood thinner meds but I still like my winter camping. My luxury item has always been my bag…I'll carry the extra weight for the extra warmth. I use a WM Puma now with better down fill. Lighter too

David, What's your complete setup in the photo? Do you also bring a top tarp in case it snows?

When comparing bags, in addition to free space in the bag, look at loft heights. When you get into the 800-850+ down range, this makes comparisons easy. It makes a difference if the loft is 5 1/2", 6", 7". Joe at Zpacks claims that his bags are already overfilled, and the baffles are as large as they can get, so any extra down might not help. The Western Mountaineering bags are often overfilled by a few ounces from the start, but I don't know how much room the baffles have left to rise. As a very cold sleeper who struggles with a Versalite starting at 25 degrees, I have also been eyeing the Antelope. They claim 7" loft. They have always claimed 6' for the Versalite,(although with the new website they make conflicting claims of 6" and 6 1/2"). Zpacks claims 5 1/2". If your request for a bag for "all weather" means winter, you might have to consider something even warmer than the Antelope. EDIT: I forget to mention that many WM bags allow you to shake the down to the top or bottom, depending on how cold the night will be. It works.

My decision to choose the WM Puma over the Antilope (warm over weight) was ultimately based on the cut size and loft of the bag as Cameron pointed out. Manufactures will claim a temperature range, but it really does come down to loft and dead air space. I accepted the 15 oz increase in weight for the extra loft of the Puma. I also chose the GWS materiel based on my particular use (see my attached pic in previous response). So back to Annie's original conundrum, based on your small frame and personal situation I would suggest finding the right size cut then picking the maximum amount of loft that will bring that extra warmth you are looking for.

The Puma is real bad ass bag, I have never been cold in at the stupid cold temps Michigan has thrown my way, also have a Kodiak for shoulder season trips.

Hi Annie, congrats on your victory!! It's not an easy road, that's for sure. I speak from experience. That said, I have always been a cold sleeper. But one thing that I did discover by accident, is that I switched out my wool sleeping socks for some nice fluffy, soft fleece socks and I have not been cold since. I bought a cheap pair at the dollar store and they worked just fine. You may even want to wear a down vest to keep the implants warmer against you. I have a Montbell down vest that packs into nothingness. Just my experience with cold sleeping….

Having read your comments, I realize I am looking to switch out the zpacks 10 degree, but I am not looking for a winter bag. I am looking for a bag that will keep me warm in the high sierras in 20 degree weather. I am warm in the 10 degree zpacks 5'6" regular up until 40 degrees. Lower than 40 and I start getting cold. I will definitely invest in a better r rated mat. Do you still think the antelope or overstuff on versalite? Do you think there is all that much of a difference btwnthe 10 degree zpacks and the overstuff versalite? Thanks!

Let me throw in a few more suggestions. – Wear insulated clothing to bed, if you're not already doing so. You should already have it for wearing around camp, so why take it off when you sleep. – For sleeping below freezing, try a VBL sack or top. It should make you much warmer. – Rather than getting a new bag, get a quilt you could use either over or inside your current bag. Use it in the coldest conditions, and skip it if it warms up.

Hi Don, Yes, those are the things I do now: I use a VBL and wear insulated clothing – in fact – I wear ALL my clothing (except my sweaty tank top and shorts) which includes all my thermals, my socks, my down jacket, my hat, my gloves. I don't want to rely on the VBL to stay warm because it just is a lot less comfortable and you get wet and clammy. Yuck! I mean, it definitely works to keep me warm, I just wish I had a better system.

On the VBL – it should be worn over a base layer, if possible, and not on the outside. You definitely don't want to use a VBL sack over all of your clothing, it will trap the moisture in the clothes. The point of the VBL is to keep a moist "microclimate" next to your skin, and the farther away the VBL is the less effective it will be. Let me ask a question, is it possible that you're wearing too much clothing at night? It is possible. You need to have the blood flow in your extremities, and tight clothing can affect that.