Deuce of Spades Seconds!! They go fast…

"I love the ambiguity of the "usually OK". In a RULE." I'm not saying that the rules are well written or serve the best interests of anyone. Just that Mike obviously has an axe to grind and is clearly trying to game the system, chingow with Roger, and make some quick cash all along the way. Note that if this post is deleted it means that Roger decided that it wasn't exclusive enough to BPL members. I have no idea what exclusivity is supposed to prove. Deals on this product are obviously interesting to lightweight fanatics of every stripe. Let's see… Whatever. Hate the game,not the player, and all that. Lawson, Healthy competition is always a good thing, and in my view, White Blaze and Hammock Forum do not directly compete with BPL all that much. I think everyone, including BPL, would benefit from getting a viable alternative off of the ground. BTW your glowire continues to be my favorite and look forward to trying those shoe laces out in the near future. I recently purchased the silicone ones called "Hickies" (no idea why they are called that) and they are certainly not working out.

Roger receives no wages for moderating, we're told.

I don't understand the vitriol that gets hurled at Roger. He's trying to run a clean and useful forum, and even if he doesn't get that right all the time I benefit more from all the good work he's done. I don't know him, my only impression is from here on the forum and the general helpfulness of the forum overall. As for these rules, there is a very simple loophole you could drive a truck through: the restrictions on gear deals are for "announcements by vendors" only. Anyone else can report on a deal they found without it having to be a special BPL exclusive ("if you are reporting on what could be a good deal you have seen somewhere else, not connected in any way to you, that is usually OK"). All a vendor needs is a friend on BPL who is a good upstanding member (for example satisfied customers) and knows what a good deal looks like who will post the deals for them . I have bought a lot of gear from a lot of the small/cottage shops we are all familiar with and would be glad to post a deal I see whether it's something I need for my kit or not. Glad to help the vendor, glad to help other members. This forum is loaded with members who feel the same way. Couldn't that take care of the issue?

I have no issues with posts like this. The entire issue boils down to BPL having control over what gets posted though and I think we need to be careful of this:

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User prospective

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1) A small number of posts like this isn't a problem, and we really enjoy being able to see good deals. 2) I don't think BPLers in general care if we get a special price, so long as there is actually a deal at hand. 3) I think that many of us DO have a problem with referral links and sharing "deals" that make the poster money. Without rules in place that distinguish between posts that are good for the community and posts that are bad for it, we're bound to have issues.

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BPL Mod's perspective

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They have advertiser who pay for space on here that need to be kept happy…giving out free advertising ruins this Additionally, they don't want someone else profiting off their site by using referral links

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The IT Guy's perspective

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I make a living in IT and I quite literally automate deal posts in a day to create a program that I copy/paste text into, that then gets spammed out to BLP (and in another day, expand it out to post to many more forums/sites) Doing the above across 1 account vs 100 accounts is trivial (ie, 1 account on BPL vs 100 accounts on BPL) and only requires the time to create the accounts (which can also be automated). If I'm capable of creating accounts on a dozen of the most popular sites and doing it all in a few days…certainly others can too. If there's a rule that only 1 post per week is allowed, then all I have to do is post 1 time per account I have…which requires a small tweak in the program but again…once that's it. I don't do anything but copy/paste.

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****Conclusion***** It's very easy to take advantage of a poorly moderated forum. I'm concerned about the possibility that my favorite forum becomes bloated with this kind of garbage. I don't want this site to be over-policed either. There needs to be a balance that's struck here and I have a strong feeling few people other than BPL staff are aware of the exploitation that could occur with weak moderation. * I haven't seen any behavior from Roger that I found to be unprovoked or overly aggressive.

I don't think these new rules are coming from Roger. I personally believe they are coming from whoever is cashing the banner ad checks… As they say follow the money… Like I stated above, I really respect Roger and like him. So much in fact that I would invite him to become a moderator at my new forum. He does a very good job and without him this forum would not be what it is. So cut the BS check casher..

If you create a thousand accounts here, BPL won't care what you post, as long as the $5000 in registration fees comes thru. This is not a free forum. That greatly reduces the spamming.

oregonhikers.org is a free forum we had a lot of spam, then the admin did something and there has been very little spam I think it asks you some question when you register that an oregon familiar person would know, like "what is the mountain to the east"? I think the rule should be the monitor should use good judgement but the deuce of spades post is fine with me, but I don't really care one way or the other. I use a stick. Sometimes a tent stake.

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". Couldn't that take care of the issue?" Wisest words yet posted to this unpleasant thread. +100

"Roger continues to be my favorite unpaid curmudgeon here who has the thankless job of herding us cats. I salute you sir." You've got some company on this one, amigo.

Including the troll comments. :-) Just keep it all polite please. Cheers Roger Caffin PS: I did like the bit about the annual Forum Moderators' conference …

> I just find it amusing that BPL is stuck on the same forum coding that has made it such a pain to use year after year, and the crew1 website looks great. It's very obvious where the time and attention from upper management is. Not sure that's fair. The upper management is toiling away on the "How to Packraft" DVD series, as well as the special "if we can just get to $35,000 of your money!" stretch goal of the "Ultralight Backpacker" video. That is taking up all their time right now, but they promise to get back to you soon. Well… soon-ish.

Just bought one. Great deal – thanks.

Thanks to everyone who posted and/or bought a Deuce. Just for the record, this post was the only one that actually announced the availability of the best-priced seconds, the UGLIES. I made the offer open to everyone who went to my "Buy a Deuce" page because I strive to be fair to every customer. But there were no UGLIES announcements other than this one. So it was an exclusive offer in that way. For sure, most UGLIES went to BPL forum members (I asked). Again just for the record, around the holidays I will be buying some advertising from BPL for first quality, full priced Deuce of Spades™. Advertising for a couple of days for a small batch of seconds isn't worth it for anyone. Regular ones, you bet. While the UGLIES are all but gone now, there are two batches of mis-colored Deuces that will be available for a while yet: the Brass and Burgundy colored ones. These are 1st quality Deuces that the anodizer simply made the wrong color. They'll be $5 off until they're gone. The Burgundy color is really quite beautiful. Thanks, Mike

Thanks for the quick ship, Mike. Got it today. After ordering, I realized I could have rode my skateboard to your shop, house, factory, ect… and just picked it up. We're practically neighbors. I got the fugly orange….since we're in Broncos country and all. It will replace my old plastic orange cracking one. $13. Deal. Can't tell that it's a second or mishap. And just for 'sh*ts n giggles', no pun, here is a shot from my last trip two weeks ago. This is Lost lake off the Gore Range trail.

There is an incredible amount of speculation about the core reasons behind this rules change/clarification/selective enforcement. Everyone throwing their personal concepts of right/wrong/justice/injustice around is doing nothing toward comprehensive understanding of the true reasons behind this new rule/clarification. Has anyone taken the time to ask Roger Caffin directly where this all stems from? Seems to me like Roger is keeping a good sense of humor about all the drama, while others that aren't directly involved are the ones getting really bent out of shape. Don't lay the 'I/we may be loosing out on deals!!!!' As an argument for direct involvement. This is really between Roger/his superiors and folks who have had their means of supporting themselves affected by the new rules.

There is nothing to ask Nathan. There are signs all over the place. Its because of Ad dollars.. How can you charge one company for a banner ad space then allow another company to post something on your forum for free? I would be lying if I said I didn't get it. I mean it makes complete sense in a pure and unadulterated way. But this is not the case, and the reason I don't agree with the policy. First its selective as some post qualify and some don't but there is no real reason why. Second its loophole central, as an employee from a bigger company could post on here and it would be ok, as there would be no way to tell if the person worked for that company or not. Last but not least, it seems that all the "targets" have been cottage guys.. This thread is a perfect example. There are TONS of gear deals posted below this one that are not exclusive in any way to BPL, but no one said a thing about them. But then Mike posts about a legitimate deal, about a super UL trowel that only someone from BPL would buy, and his post gets flagged. So essentially what BPL said to Mike was. If you want to play, then you have to pay.. PS. Save your money Mike. I will let you post on my new forum for free.

> But then Mike posts about a legitimate deal, about a super UL trowel that only > someone from BPL would buy, and his post gets flagged. So essentially what BPL said > to Mike was. If you want to play, then you have to pay. Two points worth noting here. First, I don't go hunting for Mike's posts. The posting was Reported by a member who felt Mike was not playing by the rules. Second, Mike does not have to pay, as you put it. All he, or anyone else, has to do is to play by the published rules. Cheers Roger Caffin

Which rules Roger? The ones you put in place in response to Mikes tents? The rules that I signed up under and payed for? The rules where I got that annual conference for free and no ads? The rules where I can pay for a conference, learn to pack raft, and read spammed ads on here? The rules where there is no conference? Do you see the problem here Roger?

Don't forget that MLife were to see no ads. So much fraud. I want BPL to be successful. Under the right terms.

Go for it Lawson. And dang I wasn't aware of folks having paid for something they weren't receiving. Or needing to pay for something that should have been free. But are there ways to effect change in those issues? It seems Roger is just a messenger. Why not hold his superiors accountable? Are RJ and co. a slippery bunch? The forum itself is a much bigger resource than any articles members are paying for. It's the community and cottage manufacturers that are creating the innovation that keep this forum populated. The forum system itself is a kludgy, outdated mess. But hey, the information within it is invaluable and folks will be here regardless

Frankly, I don't have a problem with this kludgy outdated forum mess… Under-armed echidna bowlers rule! Bring back kludge! The present ain't wot it used to be, and messes are good for-um an' all…

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This discussion makes me feel like Picture them as long handled trowels

I hear you Ken. Seems like people keep missing the point on how rules came about after someone was singled out ,… For having broken the rules that were not there yet. The problem seems obvious to me.