does older cuben hold water more than new cuben?

makes you wonder about buying cuben mids/tents and using them every night while camping hmmmmm. I use the cuben grace solo and duo tarps..For the $300 I think I would be satisfied if I got 200 nights with them, considering I hardly ever pitch them because I only use them if the weather is calling for rain. Hopefully using them like this will get me many years of use before they break down. Doesn't all material break down in time, with use? Its nice to think that spending all this money on cuben fiber products, that they will last a lifetime if cared for properly, but I guess the reality is that in due time, it will wear itself out like any other material or fabric. So, what will you do? Did you love it enough and justify the money spent to purchase a new one? Or will you keep using it as is for now and deal? Orrrrr…will you try something new? Sticking with cuben or abandon it?

Does anyone know the life expectancy of spinnaker or silnylon in conparison? (Not to derail the subject, but I am curious)

As one saving for my first CF shelter Im all ears. If it proves out that the CF will give me on average 200 nights Im fine with that too. You could argue that Im justifying but that's nearly 29 weeks and at that rate it will keep me dry for some years to come and if my shelter for 2 comes in at $600 that's still $3/night. I cant get a room in the mountains for that deal. I do like items that last for a lifetime but seldom are they made UL and to be carried for miles on my back. If I compare a CF shelter with the above lifespan it is still cheap in comparison to Match rifle barrels and ammo, sails for my little Precision, or Motox bike parts and fuel/oil costs for same all of which Ive spent $$ on and were expendables with no return after they wore out. I hope all this justifying helps Jennifer. I too would be curious as to how many nights you have on your shelter and would you buy another if in fact it fails to be waterproof in the near future. jimmyb

You hit the nail on the head there. How much per night are we talking? $3.00 a night is not bad. If silnylon has a shorter expected life span, what is its cost per night?

Ron actually congratulated me on getting this many nights out of it…saying that <$2/night is pretty good. At the moment I don't feel any major urge to go get a new shelter – this one is still waterproof (for now?) and it kept me completely dry through some rather nasty cells this past summer. But perhaps this fall I'll go ahead and spring for another duomid – it really is my favorite shelter and gives me so much flexibility (no inner + CharlieDog, duo inner + CharlieDog, solo inner/sans CharlieDog). I've tried so many others over the years, and while it's fun to think about other tents and such, this one is just so much better and more versatile than all of them. And I also guess that this is the price you pay for going so UL – I am also curious if silnylon has a longer life? Things wear out – and I guess I should be happy that I wore it out as opposed to it rotting on the shelf from lack of use. But as I said, I'm no triple crowner, so I am still a bit disappointed.

yeah, 200 nights from CF – $2 per night – is disappointing I put a piece of silnylon out in the sun for 4 months – 120 days. A bit faded but I couldn't rip it or anything, still seems waterproof. Normal use gets relatively much less sum exposure so I would think 200 days would be easy. But I wasn't stuffing and unstuffing.

"Things wear out – and I guess I should be happy that I wore it out as opposed to it rotting on the shelf from lack of use." So true.

I imagine high quality Sil nylon would last quite a bit longer, but I will be happy if I get 200 nights out of my cuben mid as that will be about 5 years at my current usage. I do have a 2009 Golite SL2 that uses 1.7oz Silnylon that has seen quite a bit of use and doesn't show any wear. I also have a 2008 Gossamer Gear SpinnShelter that has 150ish nights and only shows slight wear around the apex. I have found most 1.1 or 1.3oz Silnylons as well as Spinniker to mist however. I have not found that to be the case with the 1.7oz Sil of the Golite or cuben shelters. Cuben also does not stretch which can be a big plus to a shelter, but also requires a more perfect pitch as the stretch of Sil is somewhat more forgiving.

"Things wear out – and I guess I should be happy that I wore it out as opposed to it rotting on the shelf from lack of use." I agree. I am always happy to be able to wear out a piece of gear. It's a good feeling to wear holes in nylon hiking pants, or wear a hole in a pack, etc and be able to look back at all the good times you had wearing that gear out. My exception to that is wearing the DWR off of raingear, which I find happens way too easily. In fact, I think raingear is one of the least durable pieces of backpacking gear I use. I have worn more rain shell pieces out than any other piece of gear.

I too am willing to pay the cost of $2/3 per day for a cuben shelter, if that's what it's going to cost. A good book costs me more per day of reading. The initial price of some backpacking gear can be high, but (if the gear gets used) backpacking is one of the cheaper hobbies. Jennifer, did you stuff the Duomid or fold and roll? Also, do you leave the inner attached? I fold and roll (Duplex) – still waterproof and not holding water but it only has 55 nights on it (yes, I'm sad enough to have counted).

"I imagine high quality Sil nylon would last quite a bit longer, …" Yup. I have a sil tarp I have used about 40 nights per year for the past twelve years. It is still working this year. So, at least 400 nights for about $100 (today's price,) or, roughly 25 cents per night and still going. "I have found most 1.1 or 1.3oz Silnylons as well as Spinniker to mist however." Yup. Many will after two or three uses. I usually coat my tarps with like a 20-50 to 1 mix of 100% silicone calk and mineral spirits. After several years, a 20:1 mix will restore the tarp where stretching or wear has damaged the waterproofing. You CAN add several coats. Silicone will stick to silicone. However, too thick can cause it to peal.

"Jennifer, did you stuff the Duomid or fold and roll? Also, do you leave the inner attached? " I roll it up from the apex down, creating a triangle, pulling the wayward sides in as I roll it up. Then I stuff it in a CUBEN stuff sack (I wonder if a sil stuff sack would cut down on the stuffing abrasion since it's so slippery?!). During the summer months when I need bug protection I leave the inner attached (say, on my longer hikes – the JMT and the CT for example). But at home it's usually out because I may not use an inner at all, or I may use the duo inner for CharlieDog and I, or just the solo for myself. I also took the plastic thingy out of the peak vent a long time ago (I found it didn't really do anything, the vent stays open just fine without it, and it just made it harder to roll up). A) how do you guys "stuff" a pyramid? do you roll? fold? stuff?? is there a better way than just rolling it up? I'm not really sure how you'd fold it…… B) any thoughts about maybe using the sil stuff sack to help lengthen the lifespan? I mean, sometimes with the duo inner in there, or if the shelter is wet (and heavy/bulky as it has been lately) it's a real pain to stuff in that stuff sack…..thinking back I wonder if this sped up the decline of my poor duomid…. My problem is that now I'm seriously considering going silnylon for my next duomid…..but I really like cuben………and 20 oz just for the shelter is -ahem- awfully heavy……

Some cuben backpacks are marketed as lasting at least for one long thru-hike. While I had never thought about it before this thread, that a cuben tarp/shelter should only last about as long now makes sense. A pack takes more abrasion, a shelter takes more folding and stuffing, so perhaps about equal wear and tear over the same amount of time.

A) how do you guys "stuff" a pyramid? do you roll? fold? stuff?? is there a better way than just rolling it up? I'm not really sure how you'd fold it…… I stick the apex in the sack and then just stuff it in the bag. Mine is sil, but…

I hold it in air. Loosely fold in half so I can hold it off ground, then shake any water or dirt off. Then I loosely roll it up, holding it in the air. Then put in bag (1 gallon ziploc). Flatten bag in pack at the rear against my back for cushion.

Jerry – do you fold it in half lengthwise or across? I "fold" mine lengthwise, also holding it off the ground, giving it a good shake or three, then keep it off the ground while I continue to roll and fold (the folding continues lengthwise). One of my friends who I hiked with on the CT also mentioned that since my shelter was holding so much water, pretty much each and every day I was packing it up in the am, unpacking/unstuffing it at lunch, then repacking it at lunch (after sitting in the sun for a while), then unpacking and setting up in the evening. So for this trip I literally doubled the frequency of stuffing/unstuffing. Perhaps in many situations it's just better to leave it until I set it up in the evening. I also think I'm going to switch to a silnylon stuff sack – those suckers are so slippery maybe that will help cut down on the abrasion. Or not.

I fold it in half lengthwise. I hold onto the peak, then grab it about half way down and fold loosely there…

Look at it this way, you got 150 to 200 nights of no water hanging on. Now after all that time it's still usable, but a little more equal to sil nylon.

Maybe, but silnylon doesn't absorb water. Water merely clings to the silicone.

From ZPacks' web site: "The expected life span of this shelter is at least one full 2500+ mile thru hike, or many years of casual use with some care." One thru hike = what? 100-150 nights?

yeah, the more I think about the more I shouldn't be surprised. I guess it just hasn't SEEMED like a long time, but then when I really thought about how long I've really had it, where I've been and where this tent has been…… I pretty much wore out my Zimmerbuilt pack this past trip, too. It has three holes in the bottom of the Xpac, the hip belt is ripped and sagging so much that it doesn't really do anything anymore….yeah, I guess I have been out a lot these past few years, and yeah, even though I'm careful with my gear I don't baby it or anything. But as I said – much nicer to have actually worn things out than to have the dry rotting in a tupperware bin in my closet!

So now you have a cuben shelter that absorbs enough water to completely negate its weight savings over silnylon. If silnylon starts to lose its "waterproofness," can you not simply treat it with a silicon spray? You can't do that with cuben, I believe. I am just having trouble with the long term performance v.s. cost of cuben. If we were talking about an expensive car, say a MB S Class, and I was told that for $100K the car would be at the highest level of quality but once you hit 50,000 miles it would lose a lot of its functionality, then I would think MB was crazy for selling such a car. And crazy for people to buy it. Maybe not the best analogy. ; )

As so often, it's trade offs and compromises. For those happy with silnylon, there's no reason to spring the extra money for cuben. But I don't think it does to exaggerate the cost of cuben, either. The energy bars and snacks I take for a day cost more than the cuben shelter per day (and we are a hiking couple so we're looking at about $1.50 per day each if it lasts 200 days). How much does the average person's car cost per day of use, with or without running costs, for example? Or golf club membership? Or a night out with a few drinks?

silnylon is stretchier than cuben maybe you have to retighten after an hour or in the morning it'll be saggy until you retighten

I think before i started looking at replacing it i'd give it a good wash first. It's amazing how much dirt a tent can pick up over the years. Once washed i'd look into the possibility of using a DWR on it. The other thing to consider is that there aren't many tent materials that don't absorb moisture. My Silnylon Tarptent SS2 is noticeably heavier after a wet night out. Socks, shoes, trousers, and most other clothing also absorbs a fair bit of moisture as well, so it's not like the rest of our kit is any different. Plus even if the tent is soaking in water, i'd still bet it'd be a fair bit lighter than a wet silnylon version. If it was me i'd weigh the tent dry, wash it, leave it soaking in the bath for 1 hour, hook it up to drain it for 30 mins then weight it again. I'd then look into either soaking it in or spraying it with a DWR treatment. As it's not leaking i wouldn't replace it personally.