New MLD Solomid owner with questions

Outside of winter, I usually use a solo inner net tent (9oz). It's not much heavier than a bivy and it's a lot more liveable. I could get away with a groundsheet outside of bug season, but bathtub floors are much better in the rain too, so the inner comes 80% of the time in 3 season use. I don't bring it winter much.

So I learned from a PM that I should not be threading the stakes. That answers that question.

I'm not sure if I want a bug shelter for a floor problem. I have the bug netting around the bottom of the mid. What about getting one of those bathtub cuben floors that ZPacks has? I don't like the price on those and am wondering if I could get by clipping the $8 groundsheet MLD sells… Thoughts?

Decided to go with the Tyvek with attachable grommets option for rain protection. Will make something of a bathtub floor. Certainly not ideal, but living in a drought ridden state, I can't justify the money for the ZPacks floor.

Tyvek floor is relatively tough but it retains moisture and is a bit bulky.

We use 70D silnylon bathtub floor with our mid, made by Bear Paw (here). MLD sell them too however only in 30D silnylon and cuben (here), we wanted a touch more durable.

I seriously considered the Bear Paw floor. What I did not like is that it did not have a standard size that would fit the mid and accompany me and my gear. It would just provide a sleeping option. I also thought it a bit heavy. However, it is on my list of future options – which now include it and the ZPacks sheet… although the ZPacks also would not work well as gear/me support, at least in its standard configurations. The Tyvek option is likely just short term, as I'm off to Alaska in two weeks.

During heavy bug pressure I use a inner net (not a bivy fan). When bugs are not an issue I just use a polycro(sp) floor from Gossamer Gear. (polycro is industrial heat shrink film and can be purchased from GG, MLD, or for window film to put over single pane windows). The Polycro is 100% waterproof, super light, and has some give in it so it doesn't puncture very easily. It feels like it will rip to shreds on one trip but I get a couple of hundred miles of one or more before it needs to be replaced.

I also use a polycro groundsheet under either my bivy or net tent, depending on the bug situation. I've never had a site where the water pooled to half-an-inch deep or more with this set-up, but I have had it wet enough where water got under the groundsheet to the point of the ground being squishy. Other than having to pack up a damp, muddy groundsheet, I didn't have any problems. On my last trip, when the light rain flowing off my tarp started to puddle around the perimeter and trickle toward me, I made a shallow trench and berm to gather/deflect it. That worked well enough.

So I've done a 180 on this groundsheet issue. I was initially opposed to spending $105 to buy a cuben floor from Joe at ZPacks. I'd ordered some Tyvek and grommets. Now I've canceled that order and spent even more – $155 – to get a cuben floor from Ron at MLD. Too much money, but Ron did not have a silnylon in stock, and that is probably best, because this is the sheet that was made for my tent, and cuben will be much better in the rain than silnylon. One night in a storm, in a bad campsite, and I'll be glad I made the investment.

"cuben will be much better in the rain than silnylon"

For a mid, yes, but not for a floor. Check out the recent thread on cuben getting pinholes when used as a floor. If you opted for 0.7oz cuben then I wouldn't trust it in the rain for very long. If you opted for 1-1.5oz cuben then it should last a fair while, at best the same as silnylon though.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=105252

I see your point and am troubled by that discussion thread. What's your experience with silnylon as a floor in the rain? Have you had it go up against significant amounts of water? Did it protect? Based on my experience with silnylon tarps in the rain, I can't imagine it will work well as a splash guard or whatever you want to call it. I think cuben would stand up better in the water, but I guess durability is the real issue here. My plan was to use the cuben sheet sparingly, but I don't want to have to worry about holes.

So I see three options: See if Ron has a silnylon innernet. Go with a BearPaw that will only hold me, although with a cuben backpack I'm not terribly concerned about the bottom getting wet. Or sticking with the cuben MLD floor – which is only .75 cuben.

Cuben has many great uses but a floor isn't one of them IMO. It has great tear strength and low stretch making it great for shelters but has poor puncture and abrasion resistance making it a poor choice for floors.

Silnylon is pretty durable as a floor and is "mostly" waterproof. It's hydrostatic head isn't high enough to keep some water from coming through when you kneel on it for example. It is my choice for inner net floors.

If you just want a groundsheet, I think polycro is the best choice. Tyvek is good too but a bit heavy and bulky. It is bomber though.

Polycro won't work for my primary need: Keeping water out. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=62037

"Go with a BearPaw that will only hold me, although with a cuben backpack I'm not terribly concerned about the bottom getting wet."

BearPaw list floors 30×90" and 30×96" as standard sizes, isn't it the same as MLD Solo floors 28×90" or 32×94" if you have XL? In any case you don't want your bathtub to extend to full perimeter of the mid, the presumption being you'll use it in the rain which means some floorless vestibule space to cook in might come useful.

All this talk of cuben getting pinholes and leaking makes me really question why Hyperlite Mountain Gear really pushes their packs being waterproof in all of their marketing.

Justin,
Apples and bananas.
The Cuben used by HMG for their packs is not even similar to the Cuben used in shelters.
Cuben is not a single product but a brand name for a (vast) family of products.

"So I see three options…"
//snip

@Brad:
I feel really sorry for you that you see only 3 options.
Perhaps someday you would learn to use this forum to its fullest potential – e.g. by asking others with more experience to point out extra options for you, before you made any unwise decisions.

Ivo,

Your point is well taken. I'm making rushed decisions because I'm going on a trip in 10 days. Normally I would post questions and do research and think about it and then chose. I see three options based on what people said in response to my questions, and, most importantly, what I can have delivered before I leave for Alaska.

So I ask again, what I asked initially: What is the best option for a groundsheet to keep me dry?

As to the Bear Paw in the SoloMid XL, it would not be a seamless fit: The Solomid XL is 48" wide, while the BearPaw is either 30 or 50. I don't have time for a custom. I may end up getting the 90×30 Bear Paw IF I don't hear of a better option…

Very interesting thread(s), the relationship between groundsheets, function, and failure.

Other than the obvious bit of skill that goes into all this (selecting ground cover for a campsite that drains well, is soft and not poky, etc.), here's how I focus my decision making, especially when using my primary shelter, which is a Locus Gear Khufu (Cuben) pyramid:

1. If all I need is a groundsheet on which to stay dry, then polycro (gossamer gear) it is. I take the largest size with me to provide lots of coverage for organizing gear on sloppy ground, etc. Much more durable than, say, a mylar space blanket or thin nonwoven PP (AMK Escape Lite bivy comes to mind), and very light to boot.

2. Now on to the inner tent analysis:

A – If you're looking for an inner tent primarily for bug protection in dry conditions, a Cuben floor, even a light one, should be fine. The pinholes will form, but in this situation, are repairable if needed, and irrelevant in terms of function. If you use a full length sleeping pad, then you have some elevation and are above any water seepage. If you have a lot of water seepage, then you may have to study campsite locations a bit more (finding well draining ground), or …

B – If you're looking for an inner tent to protect you from soppy ground and you have no choice but to locate your tent on soppy ground, then a high quality silnylon is the way to go. Heavier cuben starts to approach the weight of sil at a much higher $$, so it seems to fill an unnecessary gap between the more useful materials of light cuben and silnylon.

Now, nobody wants to own two inner tents. So if I had to own one? I'd probably get a cuben one, and in scenario B, add the polycro to the inside of the shelter as a second layer. This combo may just about be the weight of a sil floor, with more flexibility. There has been some suggestion that in this case, a water layer will seep through the pinholes of the cuben, pool between the cuben and polycro, and create a tub of water for you to sleep in. In theory, there's some fear in this assumption. In practice, it doesn't really play out…

"As to the Bear Paw in the SoloMid XL, it would not be a seamless fit: The Solomid XL is 48" wide, while the BearPaw is either 30 or 50. I don't have time for a custom."

Yes Solomid XL is 48", but MLD floor for the Solomid XL that you ordered "because this is the sheet that was made for my tent" is only 32.

That's why I asked, what's the difference really between 32" and 30". Surely not the length of your pack? Or did you not read MLD specs close enough in your hurry?

:)

I did not look at the specs of the MLD innernet as I had the Bear Paw. I just assumed it would be a good fit because it is marketed for my mid. It may be the right option. Right now, I'm leaning toward that, or the MLD silnylon innernet (god knows I'll appreciate that around those buggy Sierra lakes), with the GG sheet as another low weight option when rain is not a concern. I don't think cuben is the right choice. I just keep thinking about that guy's hole filled cuben sheet here: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=105252. I'm not so worried about water slipping through a hole in the cuben one night. I'm concerned about having a cuben floor that looks like swiss cheese in a couple of years… or worse, having to use some other product underneath it. Why don't I just go back to the old double wall tent? That makes as much as sense as getting a cuben floor and putting tyvek or polycro under it…

I know it's tough to find agreement on gear, but this seems to be an issue with less agreement than most. None of the manufacturers have found the magic bullet for groundcloth, I guess.

In any case, I appreciate all the responses. This is how I learn about gear and usually end up with something better than I would have on my own.

Brad

Brad, where are you going in Alaska and what exactly are you worried about?

Unless you have the misfortune or bad judgment to make camp in the midst of a tussock swamp I think a mid and bug bivvy will be just fine wherever you go. It is hardly ever necessary to move to a brand new system just for one big trip.

a 2 ounce sheet of polycryo will help stop any floor from abrading, while adding extra water proofiness.

Dave,

I am going to packraft and hike in and around Denali for two weeks. I have encountered heavy rain in two prior trips to Alaska. Some of my anxiety is simply due to this being my first tent without a floor, having used an SMD and a Fly Creek for years.

While having a wet sleeping bag in Alaska would truly suck, it's not the end of the world and I agree that it's not highly likely. The trip simply brought to the fore an issue I needed to consider but had not fully done. I need to be more careful about site selection than I have in the past, in the instances where I've had water issues. I bought some polycryo (what a name!) from GG, and with that, the bivy, and smart site location I should be fine.

Brad

Brad, have you looked at Skurka's gear list for his Alaskan traverse?

here: http://andrewskurka.com/adventures/alaska-yukon-expedition/gear-lists/

That may (or may not) provide some perspective and coincides with what Dave C mentions above.