Sterno Inferno model 70138 High-tech Sterno?

[Dan Yeruski]

Here are some quotes from another thread:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=93249

Re: update on alky stoves on the JMT on 07/14/2014 20:32:33 MDT

Bob Gross
(–B.G.–) – F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Maybe I can help a little. In addition to the clarifications that I reported here a month ago, I have more.

On July 9th, I stopped at the Inyo National Forest office in Bishop to pick up a reserved permit. Once I had that, I asked them for some clarifications about the fire policy. They always start with "there are no campfires allowed." Yes, we all have that understood. Inyo and the national parks there currently allow just about any kind of backpacker stove, be that butane, alcohol, white gas, or Esbit. That much is due to the fire status in Inyo and those national parks.

I asked about the phrase "as long as it has an on/off control." That currently only pertains to Sierra National Forest. Apparently it has a tighter restriction status now due to the drought of course. Any of these jurisdictions can change their status as the summer goes along. However, currently the only place for the "on/off control" is Sierra. So, for most of the JMT, you are good with just about anything. As soon as you pass into Sierra, then it tightens up to the on/off control stove. To me, that means white gas or butane is allowed, but it prohibits Esbit or a normal simple alcohol burner.

–B.G.—

"The head guy should know the rules and regulations."

Dan, this is only partially true.

The NP Superintendent is going to know the rules for his own park, but he won't be able to speak much about other parks and national forests. Sometimes they know more than they'll say, and sometimes they say more than they really know. Very often, the superintendent is more of a politician, and he will just refer the question to the person who handles public inquiries. Unfortunately, that person may be a junior staffer, so they may not know all of the terminology.

At the last time that we discussed this matter here, the John Muir Trail covers parts of Sequoia, Kings Canyon, and Yosemite, plus parts of Inyo and Sierra national forests. That's why I sent out inquiries to all five and reported the responses here.

–B.G.–

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) – M

"At the last time that we discussed this matter here, the John Muir Trail covers parts of Sequoia, Kings Canyon, and Yosemite, plus parts of Inyo and Sierra national forests. "

Thanks so much for all your help on this, Bob.

Based on what you found out in your previous inquiries and what I've been reading on the Yahoo JMT group – that information was at such odds I thought I'd inquire again.

I do think the chief problem is in terminology, and the powers that be continue to trot out outdated and irrelevant terminology (jellied petroleum? an alcohol stove like the whisperlite???!!!) that allows this to persist year after year.

I really thought there'd be some clarification this year – so far it seems like everyone but Sierra NF has updated their comments and it seems cool to use a starlyte. As Dan says, it's a pretty darned safe stove I would think, especially when paired with a caldera cone.

I'm still on the fence about my canister vs starlyte set up. It doesn't really matter, I guess. But all the threads I've seen on the olicamp/firemaple Ion/Hornet and Kinetic/Gnat stoves (the two that I have) make me a teeny bit loathe to trust them for a month. It would just be so much easier if everyone would all get on board with some basic language and regulations.

Yes, Kafka comes to mind.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) – M

Here is my email exchange from Sierra National Forest:

Dear Valued Member of the Public,

Thank you for your email, that is exactly what we are looking for, and that is more than okay with us for you to bring it along. Thank you for checking before you go and have a safe trip!

Sincerley,
Sierra National Forest Public Affairs,
1600 Tollhouse Rd,
Clovis CA 93654
(559) 297-0706
[email protected]

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Original Message

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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 6:09 PM
To: FS-Public Affairs
Subject: WWW Mail: alcohol stoves

Can I please have some clarification about the definition of "portable stove?" I have a small spill-proof alcohol stove (it has carbon mesh over the top that does not allow liquid to escape) and is contained in a stable titanium cone the pot fits in securely. Anyway – Yosemite National Park tells me I am free to use this along the whole length of the JMT. Inyo and SEKI say the same thing; what are your regulations for such a stove?? Can I bring it or not?? Thanks! jen.

[jimmer ultralight]

For Tim ,Jim etc.

What are your thoughts on the legalities of Sterno in the origional can vs say burning the Sterno in a light metal pan or cup and carrying the gell in a Ziplock?

My gut tells me one would be much less likely to be hassled or ticketed if the Sterno is in an origional can with the Label on it ,than some non factory UL setup like a Ziplock bag,etc.

[Tom D.]

I don't see anything in the regulations that says you can't use "Jellied Petroleum" in the non-factory container. You have to get a free permit (good for the year) to use any stove in the local mountains, and the regs are printed on it, so you can show your justification to a ranger if it is ever called into question. Carrying the gel in a ziplock probably isn't the best idea, but its not illegal to my knowledge.

I agree that you'd be less likely to be hassled if you have the Sterno or some other factory jellied fuel label. But I doubt that you'd be cited if you used the fuel in another container either, such as a tealight or a wedding tin, so long as its safe. But depending on what you are using, it might draw some strange looks from him and prompt a few questions about your system.

That's just based on my interpretation of the regs and my conversations with rangers, but I'm confident enough to use Sterno type fuel in a lightweight aluminum container such as a wedding tin without fear of being cited.

[jimmer ultralight]

That is about what I figured..

The ziplock bag would be an extreme case..I think the refilable kids callapsible juice bottles would be a good balance of weight vs strength.

BTW unless I am in a big hurry, I'd have no problem showing any ranger/LEO how my stove works. Sadly ,most seem to have a lack of knowledge as to what is available to hikers for cooking..I'd be glad to give a demonstration.

Especially if what I am using is legal..lol

[Tom D.]

I got home from work this morning and took a look at an unopened 2.5 oz Sterno can in my garage (they come in packs of 3). It's a very thin, lightweight aluminum body, similar to a cat can stove, with a steel lid. I weighed it and it weighed 2.5 oz. I'm not sure if I got gipped out of a tiny bit of fuel, but putting it in a different container may not be necessary. I don't think the can weighs more than .2 oz or so. I'll empty one when I get the chance and weigh it.

[jimmer ultralight]

Thanks for the weights on those small cans. Another reason to go with a separate container would be to improving burning characteristics by using lower profile/ more airated burner.

Also,metering out the fuel needed per burn frim a seoerate container keeps the unused portion from cooking off and drying out during the burn cycles.

I looked at three different package styles of Sterno at Wally world yesterday..

Even in a three pack the 2.6 oz cans are more than twice as expensive per ounce if fuel than the 7.5 oz cans..Similar to the cost of large vs small Isobutane canisters.

The 2.6 oz cans would be best bought ONCE and refilled ss needed from the larger,cheaper cans,IMHO. The Sterno in the smalk cans is about as expensive per burn as ESBIT cubes.

Tom, have you ever kept track of how many two cup.burns you get per 2.6oz can?

[Tom D.]

"The 2.6 oz cans would be best bought ONCE and refilled ss needed from the larger,cheaper cans,IMHO. The Sterno in the smalk cans is about as expensive per burn as ESBIT cubes."

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That's what I've been doing, buying the larger cans and refilling the smaller one. That's why I had the 2 unopened cans from the 3 pack. I was only using the one can. I even bought one of the larger 99 cent store cans of chafing fuel just to experiment with and compare it to Sterno, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

"Tom, have you ever kept track of how many two cup.burns you get per 2.6oz can?"

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No, I never did. I only experimented with reconstituting the fuel on the trail with denatured alcohol, so I never used one down to the end.

[Dan Yeruski]

When you are in a park office and ask for a California campfire permit, do they ask what kind of stove are you going to use? What info do they give as they hand you the permit?…some examples please and thank you.

This is a copy of the Sequoia National Forest fire regulations posted May of this year and effective till the end of the official 2015 fire season:

[Ken Thompson]

You should have started a separate thread.

I always get one in January from the local Forest office and have never been asked any questions other than if I am going to the Trinity Alps or another forest unit. Since it is good for all year I like to get one early, and it is easy to get one in mid winter. At the local trailheads there are usually a bunch of signed ones in the permit box. Just fill it out the rest of the way and on you go. If this drought continues I won't be surprised if that changes. That has made it really easy to attain one without any educating.

[DAN-Y]

I bought one of the Sterno Inferno Ultralight Camp Stoves today for the fun of it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/222208586422?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[DAN-Y]

Video showing what it’s all about by Hiram Cook:

[DAN-Y]

As usual, I had to modify it for the better ;-)  Made it lighter, replaced the lid and ditched the stabilizer base. I added a Starlyte XL3 instead of the gelled alcohol. The XL3 is a non-spill burner. The pot support provides wind protection to the XL3. Will start doing some boil tests today.

[Bob Moulder]

Sorry I didn’t watch the video… what is the volume of the cup and what is the weight of the whole kit in your photo?

 

[DAN-Y]

The pot capacity is 16 ounce plus 3/4″ additional head room to top of rim. Pot has water level marks stamped inside, easy read numbers.

Kit as shown with 3 ounces of fuel in burner weighs 9 ounces.

In a little bit I’ll begin my boil tests.

[Bob Moulder]

Thanks for the numbers.

Not super light but not bad for a HX setup that is probably pretty good in the wind.

Very much interested to find out how much fuel consumption is improved with the HX pot. Typically I boil 2 cups with ~23ml alky.

I hope the intake/exhaust ratio balances out nicely without modification.

[DAN-Y]

I completed 3 tests:

2 cups starting temperature of water 80 degrees. Ambient air 80 degrees

Burner filled with denatured alcohol, weight 3 ounces

1st test: boiled in 8:20, weight of burner 2.6 ounce = 0.4 ounce used to boil 2 cups

2nd test: boiled in 8:30, weight of burner 2.2 ounce = 0.4 ounce used to boil 2 cups

3rd test: boiled in 8:22, weight of burner 1.9 ounce = 0.3 ounce used to boil 2 cups (beginning water temp 83 degrees with 83 degrees air temp) Temperature in my garage had increased since the beginning of my tests. Humidity was high, I did sweat a lot during tests, all in the effort to advance stove technology plus I like watching water boil.

Intake air and exit seems to be spot on. No smell of unburned fuel.

Maybe I’ll do another 3 tests in the coolness of early morning with water temps at 70 degrees……if it’s not raining cats and dogs. It’s expected….darn! rivers and creeks are over their banks around here in Illinois.

[Bob Moulder]

Holy moly, Hiram got a boil with Trangia/DA in 4:06! But it overheated……   whoa, Nellie.

Sounds as if your Starlyte XL is much better — wouldn’t want to heat-stress those fins.

It’ll also be interesting to see how it performs with a bit of a breeze outside.  ;^)

[James Marco]

Looks good. It might be lacking a neoprene cozy, though.

[DAN-Y]

From the very beginning, Trangias had the problem of overheating when used with a close fitting windscreen.

Hot, humid and no breeze could have been real world conditions in many areas of the U.S.A yesterday. Warm and humid this morning, no testing today :-(

 

[Ben H.]

Wasn’t some cottage manufacturer (Dan ?) selling a snuffer that looks exactly like that?

[DAN-Y]

Ben, that was me :-) it was shown on the larger XL. It’s used to snuff out flame and stays on burner while it cools down, prevents fuel loss by evaporation.

Here is the original XL compared to the smaller XL3 and Modified Starlyte on the left.

[Ben H.]

Are you going to be contacting Sterno with your patent claim?

[David Thomas]

It potentially raises an interesting IP question: Does discussion on a public, searchable forum which is frequented by (some but not all) equipment developers / manufacturers, constitute an invention being in the public domain?  If something has been in the public domain (for a year, I believe), the originator loses their right to patent, but so does everyone else.

[DAN-Y]

Ben, not going to contact Sterno but will be going to Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico to show and tell the Sterno Inferno with the Stalyte type burners. I like the Inferno Kit for Scout use. No spill burner, windscreen covers flame of burner and there are an additional 3 support legs that extend out for stability of the stove. I think they will like it. I’ll let them have 4 kits that I make up and let them have them for the Scout Organization to mull over for a year and then contact them again to see if they will consider alcohol to be used as a fuel in this type of set-up. If they decide to accept it sooner, so much the better. Gelled alcohol (Sterno) is slow to boil water. I’ll also present to them a lightweight device to reduce fuel consumption, something that is already on the market but will be my version of it. It goes by the name WAPI, WAter Purification Indicator.

[Bob Moulder]

I did some quick-n-dirty boil tests last night with this setup using a MYOG groove stove.

With 2 cups of ~60°F water, 20ml DA, full boil in 3:50… 3 boils consistently under 4 min on my somewhat breezy deck.

Pretty darn quick.

Original Starlyte about 9:30 for full boil, flame/pot distance not ideal, and 6:15 for a 12-10 stove, which burned an additional minute after full rolling boil, also with 20ml DA.

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