Stove comparison-what I do on rainy days

Thanks for sharing this, very apropos for me now as I try to decide which windscreen to use with my new alcohol stove and my Trek 900 Ti pots, whether or not to pick up a ThermoJet MicroLite stove, and which type of windscreen to use with the ThermoJet and my Trek 900.

Which Caldera cone did you use with the ThermoJet MicroLite stove? How much does that Caldera cone weigh, to what size does it pack down, and up to what size diameter pot will it enclose?

What is the weight of the ThermoJet MicroLite + Caldera?

Why do you think the Caldera performed better than the supplied MicroLite windscreen?

Which type of fuel did you use in your alcohol stoves?

I just picked up a very hot fast boiling alcohol stove from Tinny called the "BIOS." Would be interesting to try your Caldera test with it.

Also, for butane, have you ever tried the Coleman F1, which is similar in weight to the Gigapower? Trying to decide between the F1 and Gigapower or a similar stove – considering boil time, fuel efficiency and carbon monoxide produced.

Not sure if they make a Caldera cone for the Trek 900. My cone is 51 grams, but it is made specifically for the 2 quart antigravity pot. The cones for a 900 ml pot run around 35 grams, so if you could find one to fit your pot, that would be around 45 grams total for stove, pot stand and windscreen. However the thermal dynamics of a smaller cone may or may not work the same for every stove, so it will always be a little bit of a gamble. For instance, I wonder if the esbit tabs would be too hot for a small cone, but OK to use in my larger cone?

I used meths for my trial.

I haven't tried the Coleman F1, and I really wouldn't go back to the cansiter stove designs where the pot (and falme) sits above the canister. Too unstable and difficult to use a windscreen with for my tastes.

I think every open center stove I tried performed better with the cone. That sucker really traps all the heat, plus the MicroJet is specifically made to work in an enclosed/vented/raised windscreen already, so the cone is just a more efficient way to accomplish this. I'm not sure about the BIOS, but I think it i s a "pressurized" design (the pot sits straight on top of the stove without a pot stand). If so, it absolutely will not work with a caldera cone

Allison, good point re the BIOS being a pressurized stove, wasn't thinking. It is possible to use a windscreen for a pressurized stove, but I like the idea of a center heat stove and a good cone for boiling water quickly.

Are Caldera wind cones only available from BPL? If I can't find the right size for my Trek 900, I was wondering if I might find one somewhere else.

Also, do you use a foil ground reflector under your alcohol stoves in colder weather?

What do you mean by meth? What is the full substance/product brand name? Sorry for all the questions, I'm totally new to alcohol stoves.

Allison:

Great stuff! Thanks for all the work and documentation. A few notes:

1) The 12-10 stove and the Caldera cone are made, branded and trademarked by Trail Designs. AntiGravityGear does our order fulfillment for us. I realize it is a little confusing and we haven't been the best at clarifying the distinction…..but we are going to start being more attentive about it now. :-)

2a) EJ….saw your other thread as well as your posts in this one. The Caldera Cone is made to fit very tightly around the pot so that it can support the weight of the pot full of water from the pot's lip. We can't support different size pots with a single cone….so consequently your Trek 900 and BPL 1100 won't use the same cone.

2b)…..and as inferred above….we do sell Caldera Systems directly through our website at http://traildesigns.com/ and support over 20 different sizes…..and as stated directly above….the order fulfillment will come through AntiGravityGear.

3a) Esbit/solid fuels……they USED to be a problem with the older design cones that had a "finger" type closure. The issue was never one of melting but an issue of the finger closure not being as effective as the higher esbit heat annealed the aluminum. Now that we have the new dovetail closure, this issue has gone away and we do quite well with esbit. (NOTE: If anybody still has the old finger design…please get in touch with me….I would like to get all these old designs out of the field and get a new one in your hands….I'll cut you a real sweet deal!)

3b) One other note about the Esbit Kits. We have a new design coming out to support solid fuels/Esbit and are tooling up right now. Until the new design is in production, we have frozen sales on the old Esbit Kits. (Allison, look for a separate mail coming from Russ on this)

4) Melting the cone…..Please keep in mind that the Caldera Cone (not the titanium Ti-Tri cone) is made from aluminum and can melt under higher heat while trying to support your pot of boiling water. Since we can't track all of the different stoves out there….and exactly which ones might or might not be appropriate, we kinda have to stick to the position of only using our stove. As a point of information, we have had melted cones returned to us when people used pressurized alcohol stoves (whitebox for example) and cannister stoves turned up too high.

Thanks again for all the great information!

Rand :)

Hi Rand,

Thanks for all the helpful info. I'll be sure to use the cone with a center burner alcohol stove, and not a pressurized one.

1) Will this product of yours, the TDCS90 – Snow Peak 900 Caldera Cone – fit our Trek 900 Ti cookset (it's just the pot with pan lid). I'm pretty sure you mean the Trek 900 cookset, but just want to be sure the diameter matches perfectly – The Trek 900 is a 30oz Pot, 5"diameter.

2) What are the dimensions of the above Caldera cone model?

3) What is the best way to pack it with your cook kit without damaging it?

4) Will you sell a Ti version or can you make a Ti version of the kit for the Trek 900?

EJ:

I received your PM and it had a couple other questions in there that I will answer here for everybody's benefit.

0) To reinforce my earlier comments and add to a question from your PM, we can't support any stoves but the 12-10 at this point. The higher heat inside the cone along with the somewhat reduced oxygen level creates an environment that most stoves were never meant to run in. Consequently, we do not sell our cones without the stove. There is no ala-carte pricing.

1) When we refer to the Snow Peak 900 and Snow Peak 1400….we mean the Snow Peak Trek line of pots. Yes, they will fit. If not, please let us know and we'll make it right.

2) The Caldera cone, WHEN ASSEMBLED, is a truncated cone as the name implies. Every cone is a different size to fit the different pots. The top, smaller end of the cone will be the same diameter as the pot for which it was made. It flares out from there to typically a 3" or so larger diameter at the larger end. The height in the assembled configuration needs to be as tall as your pot, plus the height of the stove, plus the stove offset. Figure it will be 3" taller than your pot. NOW, with all that said, when you lay it flat, it is only .0072" thick and will take up essentially zero volume.

3) As to packing it, many different people use many different approaches from inside bear canisters, to rolling it up in a sleeping pad, to laying it flat in a safe place in their pack to wrapping it around the outside of water bottles, to other creative ideas. We have captured a few of these on our website at http://traildesigns.com/products01.html in the FAQ section for the Caldera Cone.

4) Finally, for the Ti-Tri (titanium version). Our first run of titanium cones were sold only for one pot through Titanium Goat. That production run is pretty much depleted and we are now investigating options for how best to provide titanium cones going forward. It is unlikely that we will build and inventory 20+ cone designs out of titanium in the hopes that they sell. That would be an expensive proposition. We are considering everything from a "custom order" approach, to a limited support approach for 5-7ish different pots, to bundling with its own pot, to unbundled without the pot, etc etc etc. In summary, we don't have our future titanium cone business model perfected yet and as a consequence can't answer your question at this time.

Hope this helps!

Rand :-)

Hi Rand,

You forgot to post my compliments on the innovative design : ) I love smart practical engineering applied to everday situations. There is a lot of beauty in function.

The FAQ link on your site is not functioning now – please let me know when it's available again. Woud love to see examples of how people packed these. Most important – if you pack the cones flat against the backpad of your pack, will it be more difficult over time to get the cone to stay wrapped around your pot? Will some dings and dents over time affect performance significantly? I wouldn't think so, especially if you have a fastener system.

Understood you can't support other stoves other than the 12-10, but it is likely that other center heating stoves with similar characteristics will work well with the cone. That said, the 12-10 looks like a good stove.

Understood about the Ti models – it's important you work out the business model. When do you think you might have custom Ti orders, or some Ti models, available?

All your answers helped a lot – enough for us to buy cones for our cooksets!

What do you mean by meth? What is the full substance/product brand name? Sorry for all the questions, I'm totally new to alcohol stoves (and very much looking forward). From all that I've read and learned, I think we can dispense with a small butane stove and just use an alcohol stove 3 seasons and a very reliable Coleman Extreme for colder winter weather.

Which fuels do you most recommend for use with the 12-10?

Found a good explanation from Pete on White Blaze:

O.K., a basic chemistry lesson, folks.

Methanol is methyl alcohol is wood alcohol. This is the stuff that could blind you if drunk.

Ethanol is ethyl alcohol is grain alcohol. This is the drinking stuff.

Denatured alcohol is ethanol with an additive to make it undrinkable. There are many different denaturing agents depending on the application.

HEET in the yellow bottle is methanol.

Everclear is ethanol that has NOT been denatured. That is why it is expensive, it has the federal government tax that is on all liquor built into the price. You could burn 190 proof vodka in your stove, too. How's that for a dual use item. Have a drink before dinner while you boil your water, all from the same bottle.

I have tried all the alcohols in my Trangia stove. Methanol produces essentially no soot on the pot. Ethanol produces a very light soot. Isopropyl alcohol (HEET red bottle) produces a lot of soot. I will be using methanol, unless I can't get it.

Pete Hoffman"

You could burn 190 proof vodka in your stove, too. How's that for a dual use item.

Au Contrare …. that is dual purpose, not dual use. Dual use is the same ounce fulfilling two needs, this is two difference ounces of the same item fulfilling two needs. There's value in dual purpose but only dual use reduces pack weight.

How about eliminating a second container for the booze? I think we're back to dual use level!

Allison,
My guess is that you were using ethanol. With the White Box stove try adding a little bit of water (15-20%) to your fuel, you should get a bluer and smaller flame. See my picture below.
(ethanol burns hotter than methanol, with some stove configurations the extra heat is wasted up the sides)
Franco

Franco, I use 100% pure (lab grade) Methanol in all my stoves. Do you recommend I water down the methanol?

Randy, I guess it hadn't occurred to me that other center-burning alky stoves might burn too hot for the cone. As I briefly alluded to, the microjet was faster, but not actually any more fuel efficient than the 12-10 (in fact it was slightly less fuel efficient). Add to that the 12-10 primer pan which doubles as a bottome heat shield, the 12-10 is a great little stove. I would still like to optimize the cone to run with esbit, so please do let me know when a new kit is available.

Now all I need is another rainy day so I can play with my fan!

Thanks for the heads-up on your business relationship with Anit-gravity Gaer and Tiatanium Goat. It is a little confusing. In any event, the Caldera cone would (IMHO) be the best thing that has happened to lightweight alcohol cooking since the invention of aluminum pop cans…I intend in the future to get a one-person version as well.

Alison:

My partner sent you a couple mails about the esbit kit. You might want to check in your spam filters. Otherwise, please send me a regular email to the address on our website at traildesigns.com.

Rand :-)

Allison,
I only use ethanol so I don't really know, however, try a 90%-10% mixture, that might work with methanol.
Franco

Franco, I tried the diluted methanol trick this morning. I didn't have time to do a full 5 cup trial, but the stove clearly performed better with 90% methanol than with 100% methanol. The flame was smaller and bluer, so next rainy day I will re-test the White Box stove with this mix. It would have never occurred to me that the fuel could be TOO pure to burn properly! Thanks for giving me another stove to play with again.

Allison,

Very enlightening – particularly because I happen to have a Vargo Triad EX (W/ the removable alky burner), the MSR Wind Pro canister stove and the Snow Peak-style burner (Vargo Jet-Ti). Your test conditions are well documented as are the boil times, fuel usage and types of windscreens.

I'm a fan of ESBIT/FireLite fuel tabs and see you got decent boil times with them… WITH a C.Cone windscreen. For 5+ day UL trips I like the fuel tabs for weight/space savings.

The next rainy day you get you might experiment with varying flame-to-pot bottom distances to see if that makes a difference.

Not many rainy days here in the Mojave Desert so I await your next tests. Heh,heh
Eric

Eric, between the heat in the summer and the cold in the winter, I would have thought you'd have plenty of reasons to stay inside and play with stoves…

Anyway, the newly designed prototype of a Ti Esbit stand (~3 grams!) for use with the Caldera cone is on it's way to me right now, thanks to the nice guys at Trail Designs. This should be totally optimized for use in this system (and featuring partially adjustable burn times too), so hopefully there'll be no need to play with varying heights. I'll let you all know how it goes.

Just an update. I did a couple of "wind" trials, mainly with the TD 12-10 and MicroLite. Using a fan to generate a steady strong breeze increased both stoves burn time, the 12-10 burned for almost 25 minutes, and the MicroLite burned for 16 minutes on 28 grams of methanol to heat 5 cups of water with the Caldera Cone. Unfortunately neither stove reached a boil, but both were hot enough for rehydrating meals and cuppas. I admit this trial was a little less than "real world" as most of us manage to find some way to shelter our stoves from the wind to a certain extent, but it goes to show just how much difference it makes when we DON'T find a windbreak.

At the suggestion of mountainwalker, I then tested both the AGG and White Box pressurized stoves inside the Caldera cone. Neither stove reached a boil, and both gave off lots of fumes and large yellow flames, so these stoves really need an environment with more oxygen and a pot on directly on top of them to burn optimally.

The last tests were, for me, much more 'exciting'. Russ at Trail Designs sent me a prototype titanium Esbit burner to test with the Caldera. The base of the stove weighs 1.55 grams! It comes with two 'side wings' that you can add or subtract to manipulate cooking temperature and cooking times. These wings each weigh 0.55 grams, so total stove weight is anywhere from 1.5-2.5 grams (plus cone and bottom reflector).

I started with 2 cups water, with and without the wings using a single Esbit tablet. Without wings it boiled in 5'50" and there was 3.3 grams of fuel left after I blew the remaining tab out. With wings it took 7'25" and there was 4.9 grams fuel left, so definitely more economical with wings. You could say the extra weight of the wings payed for themselves with the first 2 cups boiled. It will be my new favourite stove for solo trips from now on.

I then tried two Esbit tabs, but side-by-side rather than on top of the other. This worked remarkably well. 5 cups water in still air boiled at 10'00", and continued to boil for another 5'03"!! This was very cool, so to speak, and approximately equates to <20 grams of fuel to boil 5 cups!.

The next test was using two of my standard round 7 gram tabs (Coghlan) which are much cheaper and more readily available here. Because the are round, I stacked them on top of eachother, otherwise they kept rolling or falling off the Ti stand. Since this was only 14 grams worth of fuel, I just did a 2 cup run with it, with both side wings in place. It boiled at 6'48", and continued to boil for another 3'40". This was over 10' of cooking on 7 grams of fuel. Very sweet.

The final test was to see if I could get all 4 round Coghlan tabs (28 grams worth~2 Esbits) to work with the Ti stand. No deal. Within seconds of igniting, the tabs would just roll off the sides due to the significant overhang on the stove. The stove seems to be designed specifically for Esbit brand fuel.

So , for anyone who routinely just boils ~3 cups or less of water, this little stand could make solid fuels a lot more economical than alcohol. The weight savings could be significant over a long trip. Same is true for those needing to boil larger volumes as long as you stick to Esbit brand tabs.

Allison I thought on a rainy day you were going to give the stoves a real test and take them outdoors. I think the Caldera Cone would work beat in rain because of it tight seal of the pot (refer to #2 in Rand's Trail Designs' Post). Yes, Allison, according to a comparison test done over at thru-hiker.com., esbit tablets are the most economical for weight savings over a long period hike.

http://thru-hiker.com/articles.asp

Thanks for the reports Allison.
The new esbit burner/cone sounds great. I like Esbit stoves for 3 season weekenders and any improvements to them is always interesting.

Hey Andrew, is there a reason why you say Esbit is OK for weekenders (implying not so good for longer trips)? If it's just a weekend trip then I'm hardly likely to wory about the difference of a few grams of fuel…it's the longer trips where the savings really add up,

Frank, I have indeed 'tested' the Caldera in the field (works really well, just have to pack it carefully), but when it comes to comparing different cook systems I am not likely to carry 7 different stoves, two different fuels and two windscreens to see which works best in variable gusty wet weather at 1300 meters. Using a fan at a set distance and speed is just a relative comparison to help inform me which system to use in the real world. You may be right about Caldera cooking in the rain, but I almost never do this as the vestibules in my tents are always more than adequate to safely shelter the stove. Gusts and cold temps are my main cooking enemies, altitude less so where I live, but I AM thinking closely about which system we take on the JMT next year, where altitude may be a factor. Any experiences with alcohol or Esbit at those kinds of altitudes?