Winter Clothing System

Jonathan,

Can you please go more in depth in reagrds to multiple layers of merino wool? How many layers? What thickness? More likely, what do I have to consider in order to decide how many layers and what thickness? Merino is darned expensive so I don't want to spend a bunch of money learning!

Haha, how very true. The trick is to goto the Ibex tent sale in Oct to pick it all up super cheap.

My winter setup is pretty simple in that even a drastic change in conditions I would only need to change a few items to acheive harsher environments.

1) Ibex Woolies long sleeve 1/2 zip top – (tight fitting to hold in more warmth)
2) Smartwool Shadow Hoody – (Midweight wool that provides wrist, neck and head warmth)
3) Rab Quantum Wind Top – Sometimes these three items is enough for the approach on milder days. The wind top also acts as a breathable vapor barrier. Wearing this allows me to get away with lighter layers.

For the most part a simple day of snowshoeing would only really need these first 3 layers. The next 4 become more important when you venture above treeline or into colder climates.

4) Ibex Icefall softshell Jacket – increased warmth and wind resistance while still maintaining breathability
5) Patagonia Specter Hardshell jkt or Houdini windshirt depending on hike and conditions
6) WILDCARD ITEM: Patagonia Micropuff vest – for super cold days or hikes in the Presidentials this provides additional torso warmth worn under my hardshell.
7) Patagonia DAS Parka

While it looks like alot, several thin layers are warmer and more versitile than one heavy one. These layers allow me to pick and choose items worn but when added together create a breathable warm system for moving.

Also keep in mind that wool is a preference, you could def get similar results with several layers of less expensive EMS polypro…

Is the icefall discontinued? Will I ever find a smartwool Sahdow hoody :( I remember a while back someone said the existed overseas, but I didn't know the value of grabbing one up. Now I only wish..

The quantum windo top is similar to the houdini or ion right?

It is similar but it does not have a hood. I have the Houdini as well and it is great, but not as breathable and the hood bothers me when I go running. All that said the houdini provides more protection.

I do belive the Icefall is no longer made but the Pingo is similar. The Shadow Hoody is not longer made but Icebreaker makes something similar.

Hmm..I checked the pingo out and it has one MAJOR flaw. It has a double zipper. Add gloves, wind, cold, etc.. and double zippers SUCK. I found an old model of the icefall for $120 and so I think I'll grab it up. Other softshells I found are much more expensive. I'll do a little more research though.. :)

I can vouch for the Icefall, but search around for other reviews to make sure it fits your needs. There are alot of other clothing systems out there that may work even better than mine so I would get as many oppinions as you can. One thing to keep in mind about the Icefall is that you need layers of clothing to wear under it to keep warm. Most of the time in the winter I can run out to the store with a wool sweater or fleece under it and be ok, but it is not a super warm jacket on its own. Basically it is a great 4 season peice as long as you know its limits.

That said, I have gone out snowshoeing with this jacket alone with a thin baselayer on warmer days and it has worked wonderfully.

>I notice that the cocoon line products didn't make the list. Is this because they would be equivalent, maybe not in weight, but in warmth, to a thermawrap parka?

The Cocoon Vest (and the hoody) is definitely warmer than the Thermawrap vest, you can see the big difference in loft. Haven't seen a Thermawrap parka though, they may be thicker than the vest.

I have been winter camping for about 7 years now in the boundary waters canoe area wilderness and on the superior hiking trail. While we do not have mountains here in northern MN we do have very cold weather (dry for the most part)that can change very quickly so I am still trying to get the right combination of weight to warmth just right. I will usually err on the side of being warm to cold because it just sucks being cold if you don't have too. I have done it and it just not fun.

So what do I wear:
As has been stated before in this thread I start out cool/cold so that I don't have to stop 5 minutes in to have to take off a layer.
1. smart wool light weight or midweight wool long underwear with zipper (depending on the time of year.)
2. either a 100 weight fleece vest or 100 fleece pullover(mountain hardwear micro chill zip T) or patagonia R1
3.Shell jacket (REI ultra light)in the process of getting a patagonia Houdini windshirt

These keep me warm to 0 degree F (-17 C) and below as long as I am moving.

I will also take a combination of other warm clothes for camp including:
1. patagonia micro puff vest
2. montbell thermawrap parka
3. REI synthetic fill jacket can't remember the name and they no longer sell it. (14 oz, 396 g) modified.
4. Mountain hardwear sub zero hooded jacket. I know that this is very heavy but like I have stated I would rather be warm than cold. I would in the future like to replace this with a high loft synthetic jacket like the ones talked about in other threads

I would also recommend having some kind of insulation on you your feet in your sleeping bag. I have pair of down booties that I wear to bed and around camp in the morning while I warm up and they are nice when nature calls in the middle of the night.

Man..there are so many options! The Rab Vapour Rise looks sweet! Maybe I should consider softshells…I need to do more research!

>Man..there are so many options!

There are, this is something I struggled with too this year.

Once you've got the survival & safety aspect covered (something warm + something waterproof), most of the rest is personal comfort & taste, learning about your local conditions & how much your want to tailor your gear to certain conditions (softshell vs windshirt, baselayers etc – I think someone already made the point in this thread that baselayers are all about personal preference).

And you won't really get a firm opinion on any of that until you've spent some time out & about getting wet/cold/hot/sweaty, pulling layers on/off etc. So my advice (as a novice as well) would be to initially try and make do with what you have as much as possible (with the above caveat about warm+waterproof: can't do without that), and avoid committing lots of cash until you learn more about what suits you.

The other thing to keep in mind is that you can't go wrong with most of these options: there are lots of great bits of gear & lots of alternatives, and all of them have strengths & weaknesses. So don't fret too much (I'm guilty of this here), about trying to pick the perfect setup, it doesn't exist. And you don't need it to get out there anyway ;)

Andrew, by 4 layer system I am including the windshirt/pants as a separate layer, not a hardshell with true water repellency.
So the layers are wicking base, windlayer, insulation, and hard shell.
I found good success with wearing the wind layer over the base, then putting insulation on top of the wind layer when necessary. Then of course, the shell on top of that.

Jonathon:

What is the weight of that setup, and what temp have you used it down to?

My winter kit has a few upgrades from last year but it is pretty much the same. For instance I did not have the Shadow Hoody last winter, but instead I used an Icebreaker 260 bodyfit with the same weight wool. Last year I also used a heavier Ibex softshell pant and this year I plan to use the Patagonia Cold Track lights which have proven awesome in cold weather running in this last month.

Torso
Ibex Woolies LS 1/2 zip: 6.9 oz
Smartwool Shadow: 12 oz (in large)
Rab Quantum Wind Top: 2.9 oz
Ibex Icefall Jkt: 13 oz
Patagonia Specter hardshell: 6 oz
Patagonia Micropuff vest: 6 oz
Pata DAS parka: 29 oz

Legs
Ibex Long Johns (midweight long underwear): 8 oz
Patagonia Houdini wind pants (only worn in extreme cold over long johns and under softshell pants): 3.5 oz
Patagonia Cold Track Light pants (new item this year): 9 oz
Moded Wild Things EP pants (emergency bivy pants): 15 oz

Feet:
REI wool liner sock: .5
Smartwool Hiker sock: 2 oz
Montrail Hurricaneidge XCR: not sure of weight
40 Below Simple Slipper (new this year): 8 oz
40 Below TR Overboot (new this year): 16 oz

Other stuff
Smartwool liner gloves: 1.5 oz
Bozeman Mountain Works Featherlite mitts (new this year): 4 oz
Ibex Meru Hat (may be able to lose this when I get more comfortable with the hood on the Shadow): 1 oz
Icebreaker Balaclava Lite: 1.5 oz
Smartwool Neck Gaiter: 2 oz

I am expecting that with this clothing system with the addition of hat, balaclava and mittens I will be able to go well below zero. Two years ago I climbed with a similar system but heavier on my torso and legs and I was able to get down to -10 plus some serious wind chill on a climb of Mt Washington. There is already snow in the whites so I will give a trip report at some point.

I'm considering the overboot vs pacboot option for NE winter hiking. I want something for the worst cold and above treeline. I have a pair of NEOS that I'm less than impressed with, durability being a major issue.

My question is this: is moiture accumulation a problem with the overboots? I thought one important point was the ability to remove felt liners, making pac boots a nice option, for drying at night. It seems like whatever running shoes you have covered with the overboots would be more difficult to deal with. VB liners could change or negate this problem, but what's your advice and experience?

Thanks

The overboots will be new to me as well this winter. Joel at 40 below said they should be ready in a week or 2 so I am pretty primed to try them out. For done in a day trips I am not too worried about sweat massing up in my foot system but for overnight trips I plan on using my super old Climb High VBL socks over my liner socks.

Talking with Joel last week, moisture accumulation seems to be one of his big goals to reduce in his future models. While he said that VBL socks work well for some people, others experience foot problems on prolonged trips. I think he is working on a "Recipe" for people who have this issue and plan to be out for a week or more. He mentioned a combo of mesh shoes with his overboots among other things. Unfortunately I do not think this would work too well in New England with the varying snow and ice levels we see. The versatility of having a GTX shoe is very important for those times when snowshoes or crampons are not necessary.

Thanks for the insight. What type of shoes have you used in the past?
I'm planning on hiking into the high peaks this weekend via the flowed lands. I think I'm going to bring my runners and neos, the problem is, even my gore-tex runners absorb enough water to freeze really stiff at night, and I'm not sure I want to put my wet runners, frozed or not, into my overshoes on day 2. I don't expect the hike in to warrent the overshoes, but hiking up to the peaks likely will. I do expect the hike in to be soggy and cold though. Hopefully it's warm enough for an experimentation cushion.

Last year I used Montrail Mtn Mist XCR sneaks and they were OK. They did absorb a fair amount of water after a full day of snowshoeing. That said I never overnighted with them in the winter. The whole sneaker in the snow thing was new to me last winter. I have a few overnight snowshoes planned this winter where I am going to test them out. In the past I have used a pair of La Sportiva Makalu's which absorbed water as well. At night I would wrap them in a few plastic grocery bags and put them in my sleeping bag with me. That did the trick in the conditions I was in.

Jon,

I have been looking at the cold track lights for winter backpacking and climbing. Will they work in lieu of something like the guide or simple guide? They sure are a lot cheaper.

Hey Jon,
I have had the cold track lights for about a month now and I am becoming a big fan of them. They are light, breathable and move very well with your body. They are not tights, but they are not super loose either like the guide pants. Depending on your applacation they could very easily be a winter hiking pant with layers under them. I would not consider them if you are too much into butt glissading though. The material is Schoeller like, but not as heavy or thick so I do not think it would hold up well to that. Any mountaineering I do is non-technical so I assume they are going to work well. If you are looking for a XC skiing or snowshoe pant, these are def the ticket.