Winter Clothing System

If you will be going above treeline in the Whites or Dacks, consider how windy it can get. The Houdini is a great jacket and sheds snow well while breathing, but the light fabric does flap around alot, and this may pump heat away from your core. I prefer heavier fabrics with similar properties (Ready Mix). But, the Houdini would be great if you wanted to use it in every season. You may also consider a shell or midlayer with pockets. If my socks, gloves, etc. have not dried out over night, I hike with them stuffed in the pockets of my jacket to dry them out.

Also, the Thermawrap would be more summer weight for me. My DAS is barely warm enough at times, but I get pretty cold when I stop.

My midlayer is usually Powerstretch over wool baselayers, top and bottom. Everything is a zip neck for ventilation. I like high collars.
My shell is a Ready Mix, pants are Schoeller 3X Dry Extreme.
If it is REALLY cold, I wear a Patagonia R2 vest while moving. For me, it's about breathability and wind protection more so than water resitance.

The R1 hoody or a Powerstretch hoody would be nice, but if your balaclava can be pulled down under the chin as well as over the nose, it will serve the same function.

Something like 100 weight fleece, Powerstretch, RI stuff is a good midlayer if your shell is not insulated at all. In my opinion, baselayers are pure personal preference.

If I understand you correctly what you want from your midlayer is what I've heard others call here 'active insulation' ?

In which case I'd suggest fleece is the best choice under the windshirt, since it's lighter than wool, doesn't compress, absorbs little water etc. A vest is probably the most versatile, but depends on just how cold you're going to be while on the move.

Personally I don't bother with the heavier weight base layers (eg Capilene 3), because I think they're too heavy for what you get. But that's a matter of taste I think.

Sounds like you're on the right track, just a matter of tweaking each layer to personal taste/conditions. As long as your Thermawrap parka is warm enough for you when you're stopped (I don't find my Thermawrap Vest that warm!).

Interesting point so far! I never thought about the fit of the fabric fanning me as the wind makes it flap around…I will keep this in mind when trying on my wind shell!

Adrian, yeah, I guess I am talking about 'active insulation.' I haven't tested my thermawrap in below freezing weather yet, but I am a VERY warm blooded person. In the 40's I'm comfortable in a cotton T and a light polo jacket hand me down. I see that the r1 flash pullover is on sale for $58 from patagonia which is really what prompted me to ask. I didn't want to make an impulse buy. They also have a down vest on sale, but I'm worried that I will build up moisture and decrease the loft. I suppose that since I'm so hot on the move that a vest will be my best choice. Perhaps I will get a micropuff, puffball, or Cocoon vest..

Most often insulated-fill gear like the Cocoons, puffballs etc are used for stops… take care choosing an insulated vest for hiking in:
– your pack + pack straps will crush the insulation, limiting it's life (and they're not that cheap)
– the shells are usually very thin + fragile
– they can absorb a huge amount of water, even the synthetic ones. (You wouldn't want wade through a cold stream in one!)
– they are very warm!

If you're on the move & are 'warm blooded' a non-fill fleece or equivalent should be warm enough, without the above problems.

That makes a lot of sense Adrian! I suppose a fleece vest or hoody will be just what I need to add to my system! Now to decide on which one..R1 or R2..Or some other brand besides patagonia…

Edit: Anyone have any opinions on this vest?

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,54636_Ibex-Vertigo-Vest-Loden-Wool-For-Men.html

Andrew, you did mention breathable insulation such as a 100 or 200 wt. fleece. The Thermawrap does not breathe much. So yes, I think the fleece is a good idea.
You have obviously thought about this a lot, but here are some comments maybe for others browsing about the basics of layering systems.

I would add a windshirt such as a Houdini to wear over the base layer or overy the fleece while active. Use the Thermawrap when stationary/campchoring. Then add a high loft synthetic or down jacket to your closet to swap out for the Thermawrap when it would not be sufficient.
I assume you are happy with your shell so I won't discuss it other than to say one thin shell of event would be a single shell solution for anything I've encountered. (but I suffice with a TNF Diad)

Following these ideas then, a 4-layer system would be:
1st layer. Wool or sythetic "1" or "2".
2nd. Midlayer fleece when active
2nd. Midlayer Thermawrap when not active
2rd. Midlayer high loft or down when not active
3rd. Windlayer Houdini or similar when active
4th. Your Shell.

I also prefer 1/4 or full zip on all layers to dump heat and 'dial-in' the correct temp.

Are you day hiking or camping overnight? I don't winter camp, but what you describe so far would be plainly inadequate for winter camping in ME/NH/VT or the Dacs. Are you bringing a hooded hardshell? Most people would consider that essential gear for winter use, either to wear or for above treeline/emergency use.

I really like my softshell jacket for winter use, and most of the time, I just wear that over the base layer. I will usually bring a light fleece shirt too, and may put that on for the colder descent. So I would consider a warm softshell the perfect winter mid and outer layer, and a light fleece as the best all around midlayer if you have to carry it.

This winter I will be taking an approach similar to what Mark Twight suggests in his book Extreme Alpinism. Below are two lists, the first worn from inside to out is what I'll be wearing while moving:

Polypropelene silkweight baselayer
Silnylon vapor barrier
Goretex Paclite Shell

Once in camp another one or two layers will be added depending on temps.

Polypropelene silkweight baselayer
Silnylon vapor barrier
Fleece jacket
Goretex Paclite Shell
Polarguard insulated jacket

The outer insulated jacket will be kept handy at all times while moving for putting on over what I'm wearing when stopping for water, to eat, etc while hiking.

What Twight suggests with his approach is the wearing of the insulated layer on the outside of the shell. This provides for easy on/off at stops and doesn't compress the insulation under the shell.

This is an enjoyable discussion and I look forward to hearing other's opinions on the matter as well as opinions on the pros and cons of the setup I'm trying.

Brett,

I don't understand what the use of the 4th layer is. Can you please explain more?

That is a great point about throwing in a piece of high loft synthetic or down item to my system for when the thermawrap won't suffice. I think I would prefer synthetic simply because the weight savings is so minimal on something like a jacket that down isn't worth the price to me. I do like the warmth down offers better, but synthetic is going to have to suffice. Is the DAS parka that generic choice here? What are some other quality items for when the thermawrap parka won't do? Do you think that I can push the parkas warmth with a nice balaclava and the hood? Maybe that could suffice..

Would you recommend a fleece vest or a fleece pullover for the active midlayer? I was thinking of a vest simply because I think a pullover would really heat things up too much. Do you recommend any vests in particular?

The windlayer seems settled as soon as I choose that fine line between breathability and waterproofness. Houdini or Ion..Houdini or Ion…

Then as I commented before there is the 4th layer. You said how you assume I'm happy with me shell, but I didn't even know I had one.. heh.. are you thinking of my parka as a shell? You mentioned an event shell..what is this used for? I guess I'm very confused about the 4th layer because I only planned on a 3 layer system.

Thanks for the advice and insight!

>Is the DAS parka that generic choice here? What are some other quality items for when the thermawrap parka won't do?

The DAS seems popular yep, but it's not light. Lots of folks here are keen on the Cocoon jackets, which are pretty much as light as you can get for the warmth without going to down fill.

If you're confident you can keep it dry though – bear in mind I've never been to New England, so careful who you take advice from ;) – I'd still consider a down jacket, especially since you've already got a good synthetic one. Or perhaps a down vest to pair with the Thermawrap (eg Western Mountaineering Flash Vest). The weight savings for down get more significant for thicker & warmer items: you get a lot more loft out of down than synthetic for the same weight.

>Do you think that I can push the parkas warmth with a nice balaclava and the hood? Maybe that could suffice..

Try it and see! And take some extra gear in case the answer is no ;) Probably it partly depends if you stop much during the day, and how much time you want to spend out of your sleeping bag in evening (and how comfortable you want to be when you are). The nice thing about a warm jacket though is that you can wear it while sleeping, whereas a sleeping bag isn't so versatile. And unless it's cost holding you back, my view is that a few extra ounces of down/synthetic is so light for the warmth that you may as well err on the side of warm & comfortable.

Hi Sam,

re the belay jacket over the existing clothes: I can see how this makes sense while climbing where you're frequently stopping to belay a partner and so on.

But surely when hiking you don't stop anywhere near so frequently & for so long (or are you climbing?). Especially when it's cold I find it easier to keep moving consistently without long breaks, eat on the move, and leave stopping till the night when I can get under shelter & into a sleeping bag.

Also I'm not sure about you, but winters for me involve being *wet*. So the insulated jacket would have to be waterproof before I'd dare putting it on over the top of an already wet shell, which is a bit expensive & redundant (and not so good to sleep in). Whereas Twight and perhaps yourself are dealing with altitudes & sub-zero temperatures where everything is frozen & much drier.

After coming back into the summer in the southern hemisphere I've realised the key thing about winter here is that I'm most comfortable & free when on the move: you're warm, everything important is dry & safe inside your bag, and it doesn't matter if you're soaked through (which I invariably seemed to be). Stopping involves getting cold, having to worry about keeping yourself and your gear dry, and being trapped in/under your shelter.

btw, it's a great book, and I'm not even a climber.

Hi Sam

> This winter I will be taking an approach similar to what Mark Twight suggests in his book Extreme Alpinism.
>Below are two lists, the first worn from inside to out is what I'll be wearing while moving:
> Polypropelene silkweight baselayer
> Silnylon vapor barrier
> Goretex Paclite Shell

A couple of comments if I may, assuming you will be going walking, not ice-climbing waterfalls fully roped.

First, are you trying to cater for continuous sub-zero conditions, or for stuff involving freezing rain? Very different things – very.

Twight's book is called 'Extreme Alpinism'. I am not sure what he recommends there really suits walking. I suspect that he would be generating a lot LESS heat and sweat than a walker. So treat what he suggests with great caution.

In particular, the idea of wearing a silnylon VBL over a silkweight baselayer strikes me as being a recipe for a sauna, for most any walking condition. I really don't believe in this idea myself. (Tried that, got soaked.)

Further to the above, I don't understand why one would wear a GoreTex Paclight jacket over a silnylon VBL??? The VBL is waterproof, so what is the Paclight for? Not warmth: the stuff is really thin. And why a breathable fabric over an non-breathable layer? Should there be an insulation layer somewhere?

Cheers
PS: I will be away walking for the rest of the week, so no responses for a while.

>You said how you assume I'm happy with me shell, but I didn't even know I had one.. heh.. are you thinking of my parka as a shell? You mentioned an event shell..what is this used for?

Andrew – the '4th layer'/shell/hooded hardshell that Brett/Michael mention is a waterproof jacket. Your Houdini/Ion windshirt won't be waterproof.

OK – since some people have commented on the weight penalty
for the DAS, what alternative would you suggest for temps between -15 to 15? (Assuming 2 additional base layers) Would any of the Cocoons be warm enough at that temperature?
S.

"…what you describe so far would be plainly inadequate for winter camping in ME/NH/VT or the Dacs."

Michael, you have no idea just how wholly unprepared I am! I am spending this winter testing clothing around town. I walk 1.5 miles to work and it's a good chance to feel things out a bit. I will be doing all my testing in safety. We are only talking about clothing here, I'm unprepared in every other area also. Shelter, sleep system, footwear…It goes on. By next winter I will have accumulated enough gear I hope..

Well I have a patagonia Rain shadow that I've been wearing as a hard shell. I suppose my setup for when I'm active would look like this:

Baselayer top – Capilene 1 T and some brand zip neck crew of a midweight
Midlayer – R2 vest, Loden wool vest by ibonex, other vests that people recommend..I still need to buy this layer
2nd Midlayer – Houdini or something similar
Outerlayer – Patagonia Rain Shadow

When I stop I will zip the neck on the crew, add heavier balaclava, and thermawrap parka. If this doesn't work I will purchase a higher loft garment. I didn't think the cocoon line was necessarily warm enough..I should have bought a parka when it was on sale!

Also, if I rotated the to outermost layers would that create a vapor barrier? I wasn't interested in using a vapor barrier system, but perhaps I can explore a little bit.

I see I managed to pose a question and start two lines of conversation going at once. Fortunately they are all on the same topic and onlookers should be able to glean useful information from both.

Roger makes some points which are really quite obvious. Some of which I had contemplated myself previously, others which I hadn't. I am a talented backpacker and very confident in my outdoor skills in during the three warmer seasons but this will only be my second season of winter camping so I'm no pro. I am trying to put together a system that is safe, comfortable and uses as much existing gear as possible.

Roger, the systems that Twight suggests are for alpine style pushes on big mountain lines which would include both periods of physical activity and motionlessness. I incorrectly suggested the use of a vapor barrier when I meant rather to suggest a sort of half vapor barrier. Imagine a shirt which has a waterproof back (i.e. silnylon) and a breathable front (i.e. Quantum or Momentum). This is designed to keep your back sweat from soaking the layers between your skin and backpack and allow heat transfer outwards across your chest. It is for this reason that a breathable shell is important.

While you may be able to find a lighter jacket than the Das or its equals, when you remove weight you decrease warmth. When hiking in the winter it is amazing how much you can actually sweat even on sub zero days. Having a big full coverage synthetic parka is so important to help control flash off cooling effects when you stop. After a 15-20 minute stop while wearing the DAS the moisture from my back can dry off a lot but will not significantly decrease the loft of the jacket. I have hiked winters in New Hampshire for several years and while a lighter belay type jacket might work on day snowshoe trip, I would not want an ultra light emergency warmth jacket if I ever got pre-hypothermic above tree line (or below for that matter). Wearing the DAS is like crawling into a sleeping bag which not only provides amazing warmth but instills confidence in dicey conditions. If you are just dabbling in winter hiking then the Thermawrap may do the trick with layers, but if you are going to get more serious in winter travel safety should be one of your major concerns.

I would check out the DAS, Wild Things Belay and Nevado and the Integral Designs Dolomitti.

Thanks for the input Jonathan. I have heard of Wild Things, but haven't checked out any of their clothing yet. I notice that the cocoon line products didn't make the list. Is this because they would be equivalent, maybe not in weight, but in warmth, to a thermawrap parka?

I am just going to dabble in winter hiking for this season. I will not be going above tree line and for that matter, I won't be camping at all. If I can afford to get some snowshoes than I may do that during late Jan. or Feb. I would jump in on the group deal going on, but I just can't afford them right now. If I get a pair than I may do some day hikes. Most likely I will be testing my setup for 3 miles everyday(1.5 miles to work and 1.5 back) with my pack artificially loaded. That is, I don't want to compress my WM bag, or other synthetic wear just because, so I will fill stuff sacks with normal clothing to get weight and carry my pack to work. This should at least produce a small amount of heat..it's not uphill or for a long distance, but it's a good start to feeling my system out.

So really, this winter will be strictly for testing out clothing systems and to see how dry my pack can keep things. Maybe, just MAYBE, I can squeeze a Das or similar outta one of my parents for the holidays… Otherwise it's the thermawrap parka and layers for me..

I did not list the Cocoon b/c I have not tried one out. I personally have the DAS so I know that one works. My fiance has the Wild Things Belay jkt and a buddy of mine has the Dolomitti so I can vouch for those. Looking at the spec's of the Cocoon it shows 2.4 oz Polarguard Delta insulation. When you look at the DAS or Belay it uses 6 oz of insulation meaning that the Polarguard is much more dense thus they retain more heat.

If you are just starting to winter hike this may be somthing you want to invest more in down the road. When I started I only used a synthetic vest. While I had plenty of days that I shivered, you learn alot about what you need and what is BS. If you are looking to get a heavy duty insulated jacket and want to save some cash wait till the end of the winter season. Patagoina always has winter blowout sales that make you regret paying full price. Also check out Wild Things website. They always have sales going on. You may also want to call their store up in North Conway as they tend to carry last years models pretty darn cheap.

This subject line sure is getting a lot of "Re:" in front of it..

Yeah, I was thinking it would be a good idea to wait until the spring or summer. No reason not to wait for all this winter gear to go on sale. I don't have any more significant amounts of money to spend on my 3 season setup, though I'm sure I'll find something..

I should be able to spend this next year preparing for winter!

I wonder how many re:s it takes to screw in a lightbulb? {:~P

Just a few (more) thoughts about New England winter hiking / camping, for what they are worth…

1 – if you're going out for more than a day, you need to be prepared for rain. At least in ME and NH. I know less about VT and NY. If you decide on soft shells, they need to be backed up by rain gear.

2 – it can also get brutally cold so the parka is important. It should have a hood. I think it should be synthetic. Beyond that there's not likely to be consensus on "best choice"… the belay parka design catagory works well. I agree with other comments that the system that you initially described is too light.

3 – there's a world of difference between high peaks, low summits and lowland trails. For alpine peaks you need to think in terms of northern labrador in winter. Don't underestimate them. Winds of 80 mph are common in the whites. Windshirts are not adequate. On the otherhand, they're fine for lower peaks such as the Sandwich range or most of Maine's western peaks, or for trips following waterways.

4 – there's can be a world of differnce between camping in Decemeber and March. While it can hit double digits negative numbers in the spring, it is less common. The longer days are welcome. Consider taking your fledgling trips in late winter rather than the dark days of Dec and Jan.

5 – include your feet when thinking about a system, especially for overnights. The use of vapor barriers has been discussed ad naseum here; it's worth doing a search. Dry insultation for your feet in the evening is heaven. In really cold conditions, not having it can be the opposite.

Jack, I do most of my hiking these days in the White Mtns. and your description is spot-on!

A lot of excellent advice has been given in this thread. I will simply add that my personal preference in layering for warmth while on the trail is multiple layers of merino wool. It works and simply feels really good to me. I find that is worth something while winter hiking. The puffy parkas are for stops and camp.

BTW, Wild Things, which has been referred to a few times in this tread, is located on the south side of North Conway, NH on west side Hwy.16 sort of across from the "outlet" shops. WARNING: Don't take your wallet! :-)

I second the wool comment above. It is great. You will never feel hot and you will never feel cold, just comfortable as long as you layer properly. It is a strange sensation that takes some time to get used to.

Another good tip that takes some a fair amount of time to catch onto: Always start cool-cold. In the winter this is very tough, but I will always start somewhat under dressed and then add layers if I find I do not warm up enough. This will help to reduce the amount of sweat you pour into your clothing system. A few layers of light merino with a windshirt can go a long way. When you go into the alpine zone above treeline add a softshell and or hardshell depending on your comfort levels.

I had this problem a few weeks ago myself. Ended up using,

1. Wicking T
2. Wicking longsleeve, Patagonia Capilene 1 type
3. Patagonia R2
4. DriDucks Top, modified

And I have a 650 fill down jacket with a down balaclava along with if I do get cold or stop. I have been to some cold spots lately and have been walking around with it at night and it seems to work for me. With the first three I am roasting pretty good while walking and if the wind or precipitation comes out I put on #4 since it is wind and waterproof and pretty breathable. I just modified it so that it would closed across the neck better. Using those and a balaclava liner and MH Dome Perignon has kept me good for the top half. You can do all of this for about $200 from different sources and sales.