Ohh my. I think I struck gold.

My general feeling is that if something seems too cheap to be true, then the real costs are hidden elsewhere in the system.  This is true with most products in our economic system, as very few companies build the environmental, climate, social, etc. impacts of their production into the costs of their products.

At the same time, I understand that everyone has a different economic situation and that some people can’t afford to spend very much money on backpacking gear.  I am happy whenever the barriers to entry to backpacking are lowered, so that more people and communities can enjoy the places I love if they so desire.  My hope is that in the future we can make further progress boosting wages in addition to accounting for the real costs of products, so that even if things get more expensive, the cost of living a healthy and nourishing life goes down.

Still, looking at these very cheap down products, I can’t help but think of the (very likely terrible) conditions that the birds and workers are in.  There’s a reason that down products from responsible cottage companies are more expensive, as it costs much more to ensure that your down is ethically sourced and that your workers are receiving a living wage in safe conditions.  Of course, I have no evidence that the maker of these bags is using live-force-plucked down or sweatshop/slave/child labor, but if it doesn’t advertise its production method, it seems too cheap to be true, and it’s coming from China, I think you need to assume the worst.

nm.

So Dean F., where exactly does it say “95% 800-fill goose down”?

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I’ve elected to remove my original post, as the original designer of the product has pointed out that this product is a direct copy of his product, of which I was unaware. My apologies to him. – RM.

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I suppose if you are confined in a US-centric perspective, that might be true.

Of course it might also be the case that individuals and businesses in other countries have a right to exist, and even to make money. Or is the scenario that the US, the wealthiest country on the globe, should thrive at the expense of everywhere else?

(Just bugged by Trump’s ever-deepening bullshit, and disillusioned by the tendencies towards separatism in a global world).

I detect another chaffer : )

I agree, we live in a global world…

And who said I was responding to you, Robert?  (My, we’re getting defensive on BPL today.)  But I will plead confusion caused by your thread necromancy.

Lets just start with both of the OP’s links as sources, eh?  As well as every other Aegismax product I looked up on Amazon.  Just type “aegismax” into the Amazon search bar.  Enjoy.

But my post was a tongue-in-cheek commentary upon a corporate mentality that poisons 6000 babies, and not come sort of criticism of your purchase, so calm down.  See the smilie?

Dean,

just that this thread has been inactive for 2 weeks shy of a year, and your post comes one day after my initial post; but no matter, you appear to be referring to other products – but that is not clear to the reader from your observation. Thanks for the clarification.

“thread necromancy”

nice term, you must be a doctor : )

Robert, you belong in chaff : )

Thanks for your observation Jerry.

my motivation in posting the [removed as product is apparently a direct copy of someone else’s product – RM] was simply to draw readers’ attention to it. It appears to be good value. It might not be. I’ve ordered one, so I’ll be able to provide some sense of its value to others, which might help them make a decision, first on whether to buy one, second on whether to buy a product from that manufacturer, and thirdly on whether to try and trust AliExpress. I have no vested interest in the manufacturer or AliExpress. I’m quite capable of making an objective assessment of the product’s worth.

It also seems to me that US protectionism does not make much sense in a global economy and civilization, and that much of the rhetoric on protecting American jobs ignores the consequences on other less fortunate countries and populations, which number the vast majority of the world’s population.

as regards chaff, given that human survival depends on one’s daily bread, essential nourishment might well lie within the discarded husk; it might well reveal a value-added product, if one only has eyes to see…

The 95% refers to the down content, the other 5% is feathers, very unlikely however that 800fp is 95/5, the common way manufactures list this info.  I’ve seen 800 at 85/15 and 90/10 but 95/5 is something I don’t see normally in fills lower than 900.

Every company has a right to build products and make money. However, it is hard to respect companies that don’t design their own products but just copy the designs of vastly superior individuals;)  design is what sets us apart, I am a man defined by my designs, these men have just taken them from me because they aren’t able to create great products on their own.  I find it hard to respect that and am always surprised how easy it is to win the heart of the customer with nothing more than a low price.  I aim for something greater than that I guess.

-Tim

Yes Tim, I think an interesting debate could be had on the subject of originality in gear; but I don’t think it would support a clear demarcation between local cottage industry = original = good versus Asian industry = knock off = bad. I’ve previously decried the tendency of Korean outdoor manufacturers to simply copy international brands (such as Snow Peak, Coleman); but find Japanese producers quite often have fairly strong identity. Korean Zerogram has some originality.

Then again, I’m not always looking for originality, but more for quality and good fit, e.g. Locus Gear Khufu.

I also have had atrocious service from one US cottage manufacturer, where all 3 items were defective.

I might add that I’ve had great service from others, not least being yourself and your great quilt, which simply does the job it’s designed to do with excellence.

I will totally agree. Not all big companies are bad, small companies good nor are all Asian companies devoid of quality in both product and humane treatment of workers. For me it’s not us vs them, but is all about design and quality. Originality of design at some key level in larger specialized products should be important. All mugs will be similar, and all foam pads and the like. But until this new AegisMax quilt only one company had u-shaped shiftless baffles. A design that took me time to develop while building a business out of my basement. A design that makes my products unique on the market, in form and function, and a design that brings me much pride as the only cottage gear guy to design his own unique baffle system (I forgot about George’s chevron baffles, I like those). I always knew it would be copied because every other baffle design I’ve ever seen was a copy of either vertical, horizontal, or a hybrid of the two and it was inevitable mine would get copied too. I just found out about the copy yesterday and will freely admit I wasn’t prepared for the emotional toll it would take on me. I knew it would happen, every other small design piece I have brought to market has been copied by other small us cottage guys, I just wasn’t ready to see the baffles copied as they are the heart of my product design and are uniquely EE

I’ll get over it, life will go on, I’ll design something better, someone else will copy that and the cycle will roll on;)

-Tim

Hmmm, I wasn’t aware the [removed as I’ve learned that the product is a direct copy of someone else’s product – RM] was a direct copy, or even that you now produce [removed as I’ve learned that the product is a direct copy of someone else’s product – RM] (though it did register that the [removed as I’ve learned that the product is a direct copy of someone else’s product – RM] looked similar to yours).

I don’t know how a designer can protect intellectual copyright in the digital age; the only solution seems to be ever keeping ahead of the field – which is probably not sustainable.

Maybe one solution is for US cottage manufacturers to use mass marketing outlets such as AliExpress; I see a great deal of Toaks gear advertised there. (MassDrop is an obvious alternative, which you’ve already used). Some of the tents (on AliExpress) appear to be direct rip-offs, e.g. of BGI’s Wisp, as previously noted on BPL. But as far as I am aware, his other designs haven’t been copied. There are however, some very noticeable gaps in the plethora of tent designs represented there – quite limited formal palette, really (but what will the situation be in a few years?) Then there is the strange case of TFS tents and their never-appearing website, which I had better not get into (and about which I’m not that well-informed). Then that leads to the differing conceptions of originality itself, and very real cross-cultural differences…

My sincere apologies Tim if I have inadvertently brought you death, doom and destruction, which seem to be in the air these days. That was not my intention. I’ll throw myself off a bridge shortly, or at least off the carpet onto the lino, while chanting Enlightened Equipment Rules! Enlightened Equipment Rules! Enlightened Equipment Rules! – Sorry.

Use of a theory of design for lack of a better description such as using horizontal or vertical baffling is almost unavoidable. I mean to say if your designing a wheel it is most likely going to be round by necessity :) but the gross ripping off of specific designs as in the identical duplication of Tim’s work is pretty disgusting to me. In fact folks that are well aware of that theft of design and choose to support that behavior by buying their products are less than admirable to me.

As for the comment on the US thriving at the expense of others, no guilt here chief.

Well, let me turn your (jimmy’s) final line around.

Then by your logic, China need feel no guilt about thriving at the expense of others.

But I don’t agree with that philosophy anyway; and long term, will the U.S. be well-served by following it? The wealthy and powerful exploiting the poor and powerless? Us and them?

l suspect not, and in the meantime, the crisis of global warming is making the entire capitalist scenario increasingly problematic (which is not to argue for socialism, I don’t subscribe to that simplistic dualism). The global population keeps expanding; environmentally healthy wilderness areas diminish; environmental conditions worsen. Something’s got to give; and isolation is not the solution.

I’m not upset by anything that has been said here. Designs will always get copied, sales will rise and they will fall, it’s how it goes. I will say it’s easy to have opinions of things that are happening to other people, but it’s different when it’s happening to you. Also, I didn’t mean to imply every aspect of their quilt was a copy of my design. Their strap system is horrible and the head hole is copied from JRB;), their fabric choice also seems questionable  I am assuming very poor breathability

im not really concerned. I am pretty sure there is s gap between the quality of our product’s in everything from the fabrics, notions, downs, sewing quality, customer service, customer education, warranty, reputation, integrity, ethics and presumably every single other metric than could be considered. In every area except price I am fairly confident I know who is superior. Also perhaps I will also conced the point of humility;)

-Tim

Tim,

I’ve taken remedial action to remove all explicit references to the copied product, out of respect for your fine products and service. Hope that helps a little.

Robert.

That’s not nessecary. The products are out there, no reason to pretend they don’t exist just because they hurt my one feeling;)

-Tim

Robert, I will admit baiting you a little here. My apologies, but It shows folks sometimes short change the understanding of others for simply wanting to shore up a position. Its ok with me if you want to interpret my “logic” and flip it. Its ok if you want to rant a bit on political issues. Go for it, I will respect your point of view even if I don’t agree. If you had asked me for clarification of my statement I would have told you…

I have sacrificed and suffered in life to protect my honor and integrity and I don’t take on guilt for things I have no control over. It is easy to make blanket statements about a countries population and ask them to accept responsibility for its leaderships actions. Again no guilt here.

As for quilts. Man my EE quilt is made in the US. I like that very much. It is of a premium quality that will surely last me for the long run. It is manufactured by trustworthy and really NICE people. And again, no guilt for supporting shady theft of design practices. If that built in goodness isn’t worth a few more bucks, I don’t know what is. Also the same exact dollars spent with Tim may one day come right back to me. Not a bad deal.