Paradox Unaweep vs. Exped Lightning 60

Thanks for your input Kevin.

I am not complaining about the way you measure your packs, and actually like the circumference x height method. I was just saying that every company does it differently and it is hard to compare apples to apples.

Me not liking stretch pockets is a personal thing and I know that many people like them and they do lay flat when not being used so I could really see them being appealing to people that sometimes use bladders instead of bottles.

If I ever have to carry 100 pounds, it wouldn't be the frame that was the limiting factor. :). On this trip I will be carrying about 32 pounds and I haven't carried that much weight in 10 years.

I am very close to ordering a Unaweep. I am just trying to figure out what features to get and what configuration I want.

I just finished another MYOG pack on the Unaweep frame. Circumference is about 40 in. So in befween the sizes. Personally I would go big in your case and get the 4400, definitely if you ever want to raft.

@Marjolein, Re: "i was just referring to 4800 ci as listed by seek outside which is 78 liter, versus exped lightning for which is given 60 liters volume (3600 ci)."

Almost all of the volume rating of the Lightning is in the main compartment. Other packs have pockets that are included in the rating.

The Lightning seems huge compared to other packs with the same volume rating. I have never filled my Lightning 45, hiking anyway. I have lugging 45 lbs of groceries from the supermarket to home though:-)

@Stephen M, I was the one who bought your Lightning. I think a persons back shape must make a difference in comfort.
In my case the shoulder pads at the top of the frame rest against my shoulder blades quite comfortably. I end up with a 1/2" gap between my back and the frame and have never felt it against my spine. No back sweat for me when I use this pack.

I'm assuming you had the frame adjusted correctly, so my my back must curve in more than yours?

It sounds like you are leaning towards the Unaweep, but if it helps you (or anyone else), I did get a Bear Vault BV500 today. It fits horizontally at the bottom of the Exped Lightning 60, although just barely. I may still pack it vertically as it seems easy to fill the side space.

Alright here is an update:

I purchased a Exped Lightning 60 off gear swap and a new Unaweep 4800 from Seek Outside. I haven't used either in the field yet (I just got the Unaweep yesterday) but here are some of my initial impressions.

Fabric: Although its hard for me to complain about because the 3 main packs I normally use all use dyneema grid, but the X-Pac X21 RC of the Unaweep looks like a superior fabric. I had an X Pac Pack 10 years ago and liked it too. On a side note the Dyneema Grid used in the Exped is not the X Grid as found in most dyneema grid packs today.

Winner: Unaweep

Hipbelt Pockets: The hipbelt pockets on the Exped are pretty nice. They are big and roomy, easy to open and close. The material may or may not proove to be super durable though. The Unaweep doesn't have hipbelt pockets. I have some Zimmerbuilt pockets (2.4oz for the pair) that will attach, but they are too far back on the hipbelt to be easily accessed.

Winner: Exped

Water Bottle Pockets: I am a stickler for easy to use water bottle pockets and I have gotten rid of quite a few packs because I did't like to take my pack off to put my 32oz Gatorade (or similar) bottle in the pocket. I am still experimenting here, but the Lightning's stock pockets are not very good. I can't get my water bottle in and out of the pack without removing my pack. I am experimenting with attaching my McHale pockets to the pack which may solve this issue (but add 3oz to the pack). The water bottle pockets on the Unaweep seem better, but I still need to play with them some. They are certainly not perfect.

Winner: Unaweep

Weight: This is an interesting one. The Lightning is used and the previous owner trimmed some straps already. I cut out the interior pocket and the pack now comes in at a pretty amazing 36.3oz. The Unaweep with no Talon is 48.6oz which is a little over the spec weight of 44oz. I haven't even begin to think about trimming straps on the Unaweep (a few of which are quite long) and I am sure I can trim a couple of ounces off of it if I go that route.

I plan on doing a few dayhikes with the packs and walk around the neighborhood (nightly) with the packs loaded, and am trying to free up one weekend to test one of them out in the field before I go to Alaska, but I will not have the opportunity to test both in the field before I go.

Another note: My Unaweep came with a haul loop (which I didnt think it did).

I thought maybe it was just me (inflexible), but I also have trouble w/ the water bottle holders on the Lightning, I could usually get them out (w/ some wrangling), but not back in. I need to find a lightweight solution.

The Exped does come in a little under spec, that's always nice- mine is 39.4 oz, spec is 40.6 oz

How does the hip belt compare between the two? The Lightning has one of the best belts I've ever used.

Thanks Bradford.

Regarding water pockets, I'm sort of OK with the water bottle pockets on the Lightning, but I use skinny 20 oz soda/pop bottles with the more rounded bottoms. I can see how a Gatorade bottle would be a bitch to get the bottle back in the pocket.

I'm not that flexible especially in the shoulders. I've had many shoulder related injuries and find I do have to strain to get at the water bottles, but not that big a deal.

I bought the lightning for hiking in Arizona where I usually have to carry a lot of water than I'm used to in the NE. But now that I'm moving to AZ permanently, it will probably get a lot more use.

So we'll see how I like it after a series of long hikes:-)

I had the same dilemna; Unaweep vs Lightning 45.

My heart was set on the Unaweep, but in the end I got the Lightning. Main reasons being; cost (I saved about USD$250 by getting the lightning), returns (no Unaweep stockist here in Australia)(not relevant to you), and the lightning was in-store here (rather than waiting for the Unaweep to be delived from US).

I planned to do a review in a few weeks (after I'd added an internal hydration bladder), but here are my initial thoughts on the lightning;

1. Very comfy, although I have nothing to compare it to, as I'm "new" to backpacking. Longest walk so far is 13km with 6kg, and it felt great. Hardly noticed it.

2. The T-bar annoys me. When I look up it presses into the back of my skull. The pack was fitted in-store, I assume correctly, so there's nothing I can do about this. It's not just the t, though – the buckle for tying the main opening down sits at the top of the T, and it's THAT that pokes my skull. Not painful, just annoying.

3. The internal pocket system. Not a huge fan. It's two side-by-side pockets, one with external access, one with internal. If both pockets have stuff in them, they restrict access to each other (because they share an internal wall). It seems to take ages to fiddle around and dig out what I want.

I considered returning it and ordering the Unaweep, but didn't think this was fair on the retailer/manufacturer, as the issues aren't major.

@Mo…
I think I agree with most of your observations about the Lightning.

I don't have problem with the frame hitting my head since I have a fairly long torso and so the "T" is at neck level.

I'd play with the adjustment. I have found that many packs can be adaptable to various body types if you take the time and have the patience to tweak the adjustment things.

The pocket with the zipper thing is kool for keeping snacks and other items that you need to access regularly through the zippered external entry, but I don't like zippers for the durability issues. I'm too much of Neanderthal.

It is convenient. I just don't know yet about the inside half. I guess it's good for things that you also want to have easy access to, but wonder if it is excess weight.

I am perfectly happy with the Lightning. I really love the way it handles a heavy load. So I can deal with the little things that don't matter that much to me, but I can see how it could be a problem if you can't get the frame to fit you.

Yeah I thought the pocket was useless and cutting it out saved me 1.4oz. I still have the zipper opening on the outside but I did clip the pull off of it and have debated about brushing some seam sealer over it "painting it shut".

I have debated about what to do about the water bottle pockets. I am experimenting with the McHale pockets as add on's (at 3oz) and even the possibility of removing the Exped water bottle pockets (If I use the McHale pockets) or shortening them if I don't to see if I can get my water bottles in and out of them.

If I can't find a good solution, this pack might still work for this one trip, but I couldn't keep a pack in my long term quiver that I can't get a drink without taking the pack off.

It will be interesting the next few weeks as I test these two out some.

The hipbelt of the Lightning is contoured and has a lumbar pad. The Unaweep is a full wrap around with no lumbar pad. The Unaweep has a four point adjustment that spreads the load out between the belt more and is easier to tension under pressure, which I like, but so far the Exped has been ok too. I historically prefer a wide thin hipbelt. Both belts seem pretty good thus far.

I am not sure how anyone could get a bottle out of the Exped pockets with a full pack. To me they are almost useless. Like I said I am looking at options at either altering the pockets or adding suplemental pockets.

The Unaweep frame concept is definitely a winner and you can just tell that the pack can carry a big load. Whether or not I end up going that route or not, I can see why the Unaweep would be a great choice for heavy loads.

Technically either pack should carry the loads I am looking at fine ~31-32lbs with food and water, but one may fit my body better than the other too.

I had also thought about the HMG Porter 4400 (with the McHale water bottle pockets) or the Z Packs Arc Haul (Though I might be near its upper limit – I tend to find most manufactures over rate their max load – at least for my body).

just a follow-up re my lightning

I'm not hardcore enough to start cutting pockets off to save myself 40g in weight :)

I have, however, ordered a set of ITW GT Cobra Buckles. These are the same ones that Seekoutside offer on their Unaweep. Really looking forward to them arriving!

I'm also going to attach a shock cord tying system to the rear of the pack, as I've read that the current strap system isn't good enough – stuff simply falls out. Some have suggested adding an external mesh pocket.

The lady at the shop showed me an Exped add-on external mesh pocket. Essentially a copy of the Unaweep's Talon* (but mesh). At $20, I might give that a go.

* apologies to whomever created that idea, not sure which one copies the other

Re: "Exped add-on external mesh pocket"

Add on mesh pockets have been around as long as I can remember and many pack manufacturers sell them.
I had considered getting one and didn't know that Exped had one, but I guess I should have suspected they did.

I may consider getting one now that you mentioned it.

By the way, there are number of water bottle pocket add ons that can be added. Zpacks, Simblissity come to mind, but there are many more out there.

You can then use the built in water bottle pockets for stashing other things.

anyone have a link to the Exped add on pocket, can't seem to find it- TIA

http://www.k2.com.au/product/flash-pack-pocket

(aus website, but hopefully this helps)

edit;
http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/backpacks/flash-pack-pocket-0

thank you Sir :) I'll give them a call tomorrow and see if they are available

I recently got an Exped Lightning 60 (black) and so far it 's fantastic; the price just made it even better. I was cross shopping an HMG Porter 3400, but after reading Luke Schmidt's long term review of the Lightning, I pulled the trigger and saved $$$.

That said, has anyone used the HMG Stuff pocket or summit pocket with the Lightning 45/60? It weights ~4oz and looks similar in size and attachment method to that Exped one.

Certainly looks like it would work, might have to add a short length of shock cord to each attachment worse case scenario, I'll see if I can find the weight of the Flash pocket tomorrow (didn't see any specs on it)

Speaking of the Lightning, I asked Exped if they could source a harness from a Thunder- appears to be a slightly beefier harness, but also shares the exact same frame- it would be a plug and play affair, but haven't had any luck w/ them sourcing a harness :(

It looks like the HMG Porter Stuff Sack is designed to clip onto vertical daisy chain straps.
It would work, but would require minor modification and/or added bungees and hooks.

It does look like wet clothes would dry faster in the HMG than the Exped, but it's hard to tell for sure.

I'll confirm tomorrow, but found the following specs on the Flash pocket on a euro backpacking site- 13×17" and 2.5 oz

Thanks.

I can't find anyone in the states who has it in stock. May have to order from Europe.
I saw one place that was selling it for around 10 Euros, plus shipping.

No relation to seller but just in case this thread has made somebody's lusting for a Unaweep, I just came across one on gear swap.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=104523

2.5oz seems too good to be true.

I am looking into other water bottle pockets for the Lightning and may use the pockets from my McHale (which are excellent) adding 3oz to the pack.

I might try a 20oz bottle on a shoulder strap if I decide not to go that route.

Just ordered one directly from Exped, I'll weigh it when I receive it.

I'd prefer not to go the shoulder route if possible for bottles, I wonder if more stretch material could be added (or relocated) to the existing pocket????

They are still trying to source a harness from a Thunder pack to try

"Just ordered one directly from Exped, I'll weigh it when I receive it. "

What is the price and weight of the pocket? Color options?