GPS

[Gordon Gray]

I was looking at getting this http://www.rei.com/product/855741/garmin-oregon-600-gps#tab-reviews when it becomes on sale tomorrow for $230.

Only gps I have experience with is on my iPhone. What are your thoughts?

Also, can you just download free or $10 topo maps? Garmin wants $99 for one.

Thanks!

[DGoggins]

I use my phone….which doubles as my camera (Samsung galaxy s5), clock, alarm, etc. I bought gaiagps which has been great! Gaiagps is also on iphone.

[Bean]

"I use my phone…"

Me too… I have a Samsung Galaxy s5 Active and I "rooted" it (or whatever you call that) in order to be able to use the camera feature in the Ultra Power Saving Mode. I throw it back into the normal mode when I need to look up something on Gaia GPS. So far, this has worked pretty good, if I'm careful I can get through 5 days while taking a few hundred pictures and still have a little juice to spare. Extra battery for the phone is 45grams, if I plan on being out longer or taking a lot more pictures.

[David Thomas]

Dedicated GPS:

Redundancy (you can fall back to using your phone).
More robust. By a lot. For shock and for water (can be submerged to 1m for up to 30 min).
Better battery life.
Easy to extend battery life with an extra set of batteries.
Some (like the Oregon 600) include an altimeter/barometer.

Cell phone GPS app:

Cheaper. WAY cheaper.
Easy downloads online, wifi, or via cell service – potentially while on the trail. GPS units require buying a card or tying to your desktop computer.
Downloads cheaper. Way cheaper (free to $10 versus $99).
Larger memory capacity = more maps on board.
Vastly more multipurpose (phone, camera, GPS, alarm, eReader, tunes, light, nature guide, voice recorder, memo function, etc).

On balance, for most types of trips, I put an Otter Box around my phone and minimize my use of it to stretch battery life. But in a harsher environment (salt-water boating, hunting trips), I've appreciated dedicated GPS units others have brought.

[Dave P]

In Finland, always just used my phone. Networks pretty much covered the entire country even in Lapland.

But in the Canadian Rockies, GPS are more reliable. It's damn near impossible to get a good signal. But even GPS signals can be hard to acquire.

In regard to TOPO map, I didn't really pay for mine. I just downloaded government's data. After all, there is no point for me to buy it since Garmin is just overlaying Google Satellite with government's maps. LANDSAT are not difficult to create either. A big rip off in my opinion considering both sources are free and easy to create with a software.

So, I find myself using Ibycus or CalTopo frequently and uploading the files to my GPS.

[Anton Solovyev]

I think it depends. If you are going to use GPS as a primary device that must not fail, you need a dedicated GPS. If you are looking for an auxilliary navigation aid then a phone might work.

I have an iPhone 5s and I have tried to use it as a map aid with Gaia GPS. The issues with iPhone are numerous. It all stems from the fact that iPhone was never intended to be used a a GPS, so if something is half functional or outright broken nobody is going to care too much.

When I first got GaiaGPS, I tested it around my house trying to set up a waypoint and then navigate to it. The most basic task a GPS can do. Within 10 minutes I discovered that the application is basically broken, since as soon as you get within 30 feet of the waypoint, something iniside throws you off another 50 feet in random direction. As a programmer by trade, I suspect that somebody divides by zero within the algorithm that calculates the distance. I thought this would be a huge deal when I reported the bug, but it was just recorded and scheduled to be worked on "sometime in the future". So, basically, it's a toy for all involved, except you, the hiker.

On the other hand, when I needed maps of Patagonia last year, iPhone was the only option to get semi-decent maps of parks in Chile and Argentina. I could easily download offline maps and use them w/o cell service or WiFi. In the end I did not use the iPhone maps, other than to navigate from a bus terminal to a hostel, but it could have been an option, in case I did not buy a real map or did not have a real GPS.

[Sean Westberg]

For me it depends on if you're concentrating on using maps or if you're using a GPS in coordination with a paper map.

Phones have better displays than most GPS units. My old tank GPSMAP 62 has a terrible screen and a slow interface, and I almost never use it for a "you are here" style map bearing. By the time you zoom out enough to see any detail the screen is too small for you to get any usable data. Topos are marginally useful here but yeah. Phones win out for looking at digital maps.

I use the dedicated GPS for UTM coordinates, plot tracking, and waypoint navigation. The compass is pretty good too, but I have a magnetic one so while it's nifty it's not a must-have feature.

I also like that I can leave it on and running *way* longer than my phone. I might get a full day out of my phone if I leave GPS on. I'll get way more than that on my Garmin.

[Bob Gross]

"When I first got GaiaGPS, I tested it around my house trying to set up a waypoint and then navigate to it. The most basic task a GPS can do. Within 10 minutes I discovered that the application is basically broken, since as soon as you get within 30 feet of the waypoint, something iniside throws you off another 50 feet in random direction."

Anton, I suggest that you stick to software.

There are many subtle aspects of GPS hardware engineering that are far beyond the imagination of programmers. For one thing, GPS was never intended to be used indoors. It will work indoors somewhat, but it is unpredictable. I don't know if my own home is typical, but there are many pieces of metal here. The stucco walls have wire mesh inside. The attic insulation has metal foil backing. Each of those little metal pieces has become a signal reflector, which gives rise to multipath interference. A typical smart phone does not have an elaborate GPS antenna on it, so it can't discriminate which signals are coming from space versus which signals are bouncing out of your attic. It's a temporal problem.

If you want to get consistent GPS reception inside your home, then I suggest that you put an external GPS antenna several feet above the roof and run coax down to a receiver inside.

–B.G.–

[Jerry Adams]

"If you want to get consistent GPS reception inside your home, then I suggest that you put an external GPS antenna several feet above the roof and run coax down to a receiver inside."

Now that's funny!

I think basic GPS functionality is to show where I am on a topo map. If I get within 30, 50, or 100s of feet it's close enough. If I'm looking for a snow covered trail, it's handy to be closer, but within 100s of feet is probably close enough to start looking around where a trail might be.

I don't want to turn off my brain and just follow instructions. That's why I'm retired now : )

Another basic functionality is to take a track of what I did, so I can refer to it later. Determine distance and elevation gain. Have a paper or gps map with the trail I took to refer to on another trip. I assume a smart phone will do that?

[Bob Gross]

"Now that's funny!"

What is funny about it?

I've done hundreds of GPS receivers that way. You do need to use good coax.

–B.G.–

[Jerry Adams]

why do you need a GPS inside your house? You already know where you are. If you get lost inside your house you have other problems. I don't need a GPS to tell me how to get from my living room to my bedroom.

[Gordon Gray]

I'll just stick to my iPhone and download some additional apps since I have only used google maps and earth. Just got the free version of Trimble Outdoors. Seems cool.

Thanks for all the info (and entertainment).

[Frank T]

I really thought Anton meant "around" the house, not "inside" it :|

David T. gave a nice round up of the pros of each type of device. I'll add:

GPS:

– Probably going to be easier to view screen in bright light.
– Touch screen *may* be easier to use with gloves on.
– GPS accuracy and lock time will probably be better than phone.

Phone:

– In some cases you can create and store offline maps from online maps you access with cell service.

I have a Garmin Oregon 400 and a Motorola Atrix HD running OruxMaps, and the points I listed above hold true for me. YMMV.

[Anton Solovyev]

Bob, I certainly meant using GPS outside in the vicinity of my house. With a "real" GPS when I used to do geocaching I could often pinpoint the cache within a couple of feet. So, not being able to navigate to a waypoint within better than 30 feet was a surprise. The fact such a glaring problem in the software was present told me the vendor did not care all that much.

[Jim C]

I asked this once before on another thread, but there was no response, so i hope I'll be forgiven for asking again.

Does anybody have any experience with Bluetooth GPS devices, like Bad Elf or Garmin GLO? These are devices that pair with your phone and act as a GPS and GLONAS receiver. Many of them also offer data logging features. And they supposedly offer a faster GPS lock and better battery life.

For example, Bad Elf weighs 3.2 oz (90 grams) and claims 24-32 hour battery life (depending on model) while data logging, and over 100 hour data logging capacity.

So I wonder if this, paired with a smart phone, would provide the best of both worlds: The faster and more accurate GPS and good battery life from a dedicated GPS, and the better, larger, and sharper screen of a smart phone.

Has anybody used one of these add-ons? I'm interested in your thoughts if so.

P.S. My iPhone app of choice is All Trails. Their next version is in beta and looks nice.

P.P.S. One model of the Bad Elf has a barometer. I wish they'd also add a thermometer with data logging. Not out of any real necessity, but I'm interested in tracking highs and lows during the day. It could be useful when dialing in your sleep system, and determining what you need for different conditions.

[Bob Gross]

"So, not being able to navigate to a waypoint within better than 30 feet was a surprise. The fact such a glaring problem in the software was present told me the vendor did not care all that much."

It is characteristic of a GPS hardware weakness, not software.

–B.G.–

[Frank T]

Jim, I may have started a response to this in the other thread, but didn't follow through. Been having internet outages here the past 2 weeks.

I have a QStarz BT-Q818XT 10Hz 66 Channel Bluetooth GPS Receiver which I pair with my Motorola phone & the OruxMaps app.

I haven't used it very much, although I have confirmed you can program it to do 1,2,3,4, or 5 Hz updates by connecting it to a PC with a USB cable. It also does 10 Hz but that is a fixed update rate when the unit is set to that switch position.

For hiking I don't see that anything higher than 1 Hz is necessary. For mountain biking I would use 2 Hz. The higher rates are better for automotive applications (people use this for rally car races, I guess).

One of the purported advantages of using this paired with a smartphone, vs. using the smartphone GPS receiver, is that bluetooth consumes less power than GPS on the phone, thus you'd get better phone battery life with this approach. The battery life of the BT GPS receiver is much greater than the phone's. Of course there's the weight penalty, but maybe you could then squeak by without carrying a re-charger for the phone. Too many variables to make a definitive comparison.

The one time I tried to do an apples-to-apples comparison of track accuracy, using my phone plus the QStarz vs. my Garmin Oregon running simultaneously, the Oregon stopped recording shortly after I started my ride.

As a side note, I much prefer the topo maps I make for the phone + OruxMaps vs. the free maps I have downloaded for the Oregon from GPSFileDepot. I make the maps with Mobile Atlas Creator (MOBAC) using the U.S. National Topo maps as the source. If only the display of the phone didn't suffer so much under bright sunlight.

[BlackHatGuy]

Never used it backpacking, but I had a Bad Elf GPS dongle that I plugged into my iPod Touch and used as a bike computer. Worked exceptionally well. The dongle got its power from the phone, so it decreased the phone battery quicker, but not by a lot. It always easily lasted through a ride of a few hours.

[Jim C]

Frank,

Thanks for the information; that's very helpful.

Regarding reading your phone's screen outdoors, do you know if your Motorola has an OLED screen? I haven't had problems with my screen, which is LCD. I wonder if that's the difference.

Incidentally, I mentioned it would be nice if the Bad Elf had a thermometer. It turns out the Pro+ model does, though it isn't mentioned anywhere on their site or even the manual (which I downloaded from their site). I learned it Forman Amazon review, then confirmed it with a Google search. I don't know if it logs the temperature, though.

[Dave P]

I learned awhile ago to give up on GPS features on smartphones if it's near a building. They do okay on the trail or large open areas, but go near a major powerline or railway? Screwy again.

They are very wonky, and it's not related to the software at all. I have went through several phones and software; and the issue is more dependent on the hardware.

[Bob Gross]

I will agree with Dave P. here.

Smartphones tend to implement GPS with the cheapest and smallest GPS antenna, and they are far from being immune to multipath interference and ambient noise.

Dedicated GPS receivers, while far from being perfect, tend to implement GPS with better antennas and better noise immunity.

One of these might declare that you've reached your waypoint when you've gotten within 40 feet of it. Another one might not declare it until you've gotten within 15 feet of it. By loosening up on performance accuracy, you can make other performance look good.

–B.G.–

[Frank T]

@Jim C.: My phone has a TFT-LCD screen.

[Anonymous]

Since OP seems interested in upgrading, I'm skipping the advantages of a dedicated GPS over phone.

There was a Feb thread here about winter GPS, and I think someone mentioned there are two classes of batteries rated for different temperature ranges. Depending on your future ambitions you might want to double check that information and or verify what temperatures this device is rated for.

I don't own a gps yet. On our Feb Mount washington trip this year, my buddy had good success with his garmin and downloading free maps off forums. I suspect they included more updated route information than the garmin maps might. I'd suggest the route information is almost more valuable than the TOPO data you asked about paying for.

[Bean]

"One of the purported advantages of using this paired with a smartphone, vs. using the smartphone GPS receiver, is that bluetooth consumes less power than GPS on the phone, thus you'd get better phone battery life with this approach. The battery life of the BT GPS receiver is much greater than the phone's."

Thank you for posting this bit of information, I thought this might be the case, but wasn't motivated enough to 'google it'.

Sometimes I bring a Delorme inReach, but usually don't pair it to my phone to save power, because the downloadable maps for the Earthmate software has missing trails and are almost worthless in a lot of places. However, when its maps are viable, I'll try killing my location services on the phone and use their app instead. Maybe I'll get a little more life out of my phone.

[BlackHatGuy]

"There was a Feb thread here about winter GPS, and I think someone mentioned there are two classes of batteries rated for different temperature ranges"

That was about PLBs, not general GPS devices.

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