Ursack vs Critters (not bears)?

It's clear that a bear will perforate an ursack and ruin your food.

To be extra clear, The evidence suggests the Ursack sans aluminum liner is not much bear protection at all when filled with food and found by a bear.

I have the original green TKO, I've only noticed a few, ever so small abrasions on it, then you have to really look. More an issue getting the hole cinched tight. I've heard that critters along the coast can access it, from the group I bp with. The Forest Circus has gone back and forth on how to properly secure it. Used to be, if tied to a tree per manufacturer instructions, they were worried about "resource" damage, then ask you why it was just laying on the ground. Doh on the FS.
Duane

There's absolutely nothing clear about a post of an Ursack without any context or background.
Worse than useless than useless in fact, because without context it comes across as FUD.

context for people who can’t achieve 1000 words per picture.

Got it. So the Ursacks do exactly what I thought they did all along, to wit:

"Ursacks do not protect your food from being useless to you. Even though the bear may not be able to open a properly stowed ursack, it will completely destroy it's contents."

"it buys you time to fight for your food if you hear the bear, but that's it."

"Ursacks will not shred, but they can be difficult to secure properly"

That's more or less what I assumed Ursacks do. The possibility for user error is much higher with Ursacks, that's for sure, but that being said, haven't heard too many other horror stories about Ursacks.

So that thread referenced was from 2012. My understanding is that the Ursack was beefed up in 2014. Anyone have the latest Ursack mangled by a bear or chewed up by critters yet? Just curious.

Fabric hasn't changed. Just the seams. That's how you can have your bag updated and be compliant with the new standard

From the Ursack site.

Retrofit Ursack S29 AllWhites to IGBC specifications. Available for AllWhites sold before April 2014. What you are buying: 1) the addition of the appropriate number of Spectra thread side seams, and 2) a seam label indicating IGBC certification. AllWhites purchased after April 2014 already meet IGBC standards. Retrofitting is not available for any previous models: if your Ursack is green, beige, or yellow it cannot be retrofitted.

So, where is the third picture from, oh 1000-word wonder?

It's clear that NO ONE expects Ursacks to be an exact equivalent to a canister. No soft-sided container will be able to prevent crushing- they have subtly different design goals. Would I use one in Yosemite? No, probably not. But as a more convenient option instead of hanging in less bear-stressed areas? Awesome.

http://www.whitneyzone.com/wz/ubbthreads.php/topics/28292/Re_Ursack_failure_near_Mammoth

Duane is the only one here so far that has posted regarding personal experience.
Anyone been using one frequently in bear country? Had any problems with bears or other critters?

Use for a number of years now. Never tested

We carried Ursacks on the AT for many years due to mouse and squirrel issues. In Shenandoah I watched a raccoon try to get into my Ursack (the green one) for a little while before moving on to easier pickings. Never had a small critter inside the bag, unlike every other food bag I have tried. (Also never had a bear try it, but I wasn't using it for bear protection.)

We've since been using the Zpacks Blast food bags with a PCT hang, but these are definitively not critter proof, no matter what the optimistic copy on the Zpacks page. However, when we get all our food into an OP Sak inside the Blast bag, we've never had a problem with small critters. The Blast bags hold a lot more food than the Ursack, which is sometimes useful. The overall weight is not as different as one might expect, given the need for a 40-50 ft spectra hanging line, rock bag, OP saks, etc., but the Blast setup is slightly lighter (more so if you take into account the larger capacity).

So, short answer – the Ursacks we used kept small critters out of our food.

Willie,
In the third photo – the bag on the left appears empty but with the top still knotted, and tied off to the tree. Was it ripped open?

Are all the wrappers and remains from the left bag, or were there other contributions from the right bag?

Thanks.

They should have tied the bags higher up, And they should have been separated by at least 25 yards. People can't follow basic instructions. This is why Yosemite will never approve them.

From the Ursack site..

The Do's & Don'ts
DO Tie the cord with a double overhand knot–tight–so that there is no opening at the top of the bag. If food is visible, you have packed too much in. If you can see it, a bear can get it.
DO Tie URSACK up to a strong branch so that it can’t be crushed or stolen. Bears have been known to chew through 5 inch branches to get to food.
DO Check trailhead regulations.
DO Keep any food item that could leak in a plastic bag inside URSACK. Even though a bear may not be able to penetrate URSACK, he may be able to crush the contents. If URSACK does get crushed, there won’t be a “food reward” that can be licked from the outside.
DO Machine wash, no bleach line dry
DON’T keep URSACK in or near your sleeping bag or tent.
DON’T keep URSACK in camp. URSACK must be secured to a fixed object that is a safe distance from your camp site.
DON’T over stuff or force the O.P.SAK to close
DON’T leave them next to each other. If using more than one Ursack, separate them at least 25 yards.

To answer the OP, they are absolutely perfect for all critters other than bears. I have pretty much used one (the SAME one – Kevlar material, no special "lining")on every non-bear-can trip I have made in the past decade. As for critter experiences, tons. My ursack as numerous battle scars – none of which decrease its functionality a jot. I'd say most places where I know there are no bears and am too lazy to suspend it as opposed to hanging it on a branch it would be the exception NOT to find some critter action overnight. Racoons are the most persistent buggers, and if given a comfortable place to sit, can get a tooth in between the strands of Kevlar leaving a "pin hole". Same with mice. I have also seen skunks and possum. But I sure I've missed seeing about %99.0 of them at night when the action goes down. Ive had a flock of Turkeys peck at it one morning in Henry Coe.

So my ursack is on my gear list most of the time when bears are not present. Protects my food inviolate – tested on real animals.

The critters (including bears) can absolutely NOT rip the Kevlar. If they work really hard bears the CAN make a hole between the fibers. I know the seams might get ripped by a bear with time on his hand and no distractions.

Whether or not the ursack "works" with bears depend on you point of view. The ones in the picture were NOT used as per instructions. One central idea for both critter and bear is not to tie the bag anywhere the critter can sit for a long time and chew comfortably. Read the instructions. Also, and its probably just me, but I would never fully trust anyone that took that much commercial packaging on a backpacking trip. ;-)

Secondly, and this is absolutely clear, the Ursack, when used to keep a bear out is NOT intended to protect your food – its purpose is to protect the bear from your food, and that is the only criteria Yosemite and the other parks care about. Again, regulations are not about you, they are about the bear. At any rate, it was eventually realized that a patient bear could pulverize you food into a paste and eventually squeeze it out of the bag like toothpaste, even without an actual "failure" of the bag. So no ursacks in areas of high bear-human contact.

Summary – great for protecting your food from non-bear critter bandits. The guys with small mouths will not usually do any significant crunching of the food inside either. Ursacks need to be tied correctly with the Kevlar cords – ideally to a branch that make it hard for a critter to relax and have at it. In places where you can hang, learn to hang correctly, and then the Ursack is superfluous. In places where it is legal in bear country, and you can't or choose not to hang, know that the bear will turn your entire food supply in to mush chewing on the bag if it gets a chance. As mention above, if you are going to use the Ursack like that know that you will need to be prepared to scare the bear off it, and that is likely to be a night long task.

Personally I'd never use one in bear country – I bring a can, or be prepared to hang – correctly.

One important factor is an OPSak. Ursacks come with one and they are recommended to be used with the product. An odor proof sack, when used properly and carefully will increase the safety factor of your food immeasurably–no matter what outter container your are using.

Eliminating the pressence of your food to bears and other critters is your first and most important line of defense. This includes storing it away from where you cook/eat/sleep (which are also not the same location) and doing a much as possible to limit the odor your stash gives off.

Since this has drifted to Ursack's vs bears as opposed to the OP's question, back to that point…

I've used both an old green version and the new updated IGBC certified S29 for the past 8 years. The green one had plenty of run ins with various rodents over the years and I've never had any issue. It has been perfect for that. I live in the midwest and do plenty of short trips outside of bear country, in those cases I never worry about tying it to a tree. I still use an OPSak but it just gets cinched up and left on the ground outside the tent. When I head to the Appalacians, I hang as necessary. They both have also been used multiple times out west such as Glacier, Wind Rivers and Yellowstone.

“One important factor is an OPSak. Ursacks come with one and they are recommended to be used with the product. An odor proof sack, when used properly and carefully will increase the safety factor of your food immeasurably–no matter what outter container your are using.”

Perhaps not.

Odor Proof Bag Test Article

The Opsacks are no longer included.

""Ursacks do not protect your food from being useless to you. Even though the bear may not be able to open a properly stowed ursack, it will completely destroy it's contents.""

That is why Ursacks are sold with an aluminum insert. It will keep the contents from being mangled. Yes, it weighs more, but still far less than even a Bearikade Scout.

Why anyone would carry an Ursack without the insert in bear country is beyond me.

>> Why anyone would carry an Ursack without the insert in bear country is beyond me.

Why anyone would carry an Ursack in bear country is beyond me!!! ;)

But then I spend most of my time above tree line in the Sierra……where there are usually no trees to hang anything. So I just carry a canister whether required or not. Simplifies my life, protects the critters.

Just depends on where you hike and what the regulations require. I just find a secure place to jam my canister between rocks away from me and sleep well!

The only critters I've been bothered by was a family of persistent deer that were chewing on my shirt one night. It took some work to chase them away. I guess they liked the salt in it.
I'd left it to hang from my trekking pole overnight.

"But then I spend most of my time above tree line in the Sierra……where there are usually no trees to hang anything. So I just carry a canister whether required or not. Simplifies my life, protects the critters."

A lot of us spend their time above tree line in the Sierra, and in most cases that requires no canister of any kind. Haven't carried a canister above tree line in 40 years, and have never had an issue. So far. Diff'rent strokes….. :0)

Tom: what's the definition of treeline? No trees at all, or krumholtz and stunted trees that are no good at all for hanging food? For example, Donahue Pass proper versus 500 feet lower, or thousand island lake. I've certainly run into people who've lost food to bears camping at more or less 9200 feet. I'm not disagreeing, just curious. (Of course, these people were at established campsites in popular areas.)

Willie- So, you're posting pictures of obsolete Ursacks that failed? Is that applicable? The posts you linked mention that it was almost certainly an older model from before they started using Spectra thread on the seams, which makes total sense based on the dates alone, and the same applies to the other pics too. To my knowledge all canisters have had failures, too, and all (esp. BearVaults) have had updates and improvements. I'll agree that the Ursack innately is more vulnerable to failure (defined as giving a food reward), if used without the insert. In a highly stressed area they should be used with the insert.

OP- My Ursack has never been seriously challenged- a few chipmunks I think, and still looks like new. But as I mentioned I use it selectively. Heck, in general my whole goal is to get out away from other people, so I tend to be in remote places with un-acclimatized wildlife. If I'm not and I'm below treeline I hang, and have never fed a bear. I despise the weight of canisters, and will only use one when I must.

"My Ursack has never been seriously challenged- a few chipmunks I think, and still looks like new. But as I mentioned I use it selectively. Heck, in general my whole goal is to get out away from other people, so I tend to be in remote places with un-acclimatized wildlife. If I'm not and I'm below treeline I hang, and have never fed a bear. I despise the weight of canisters, and will only use one when I must."

+1