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DIY Walking Axe


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  • #1408302
    Sam Haraldson
    BPL Member

    @sharalds

    Locale: Gallatin Range

    Steve –

    Fine work, my friend. Hopefully v. 2 can include the carbon fiber shaft discussed previously.

    Roger –

    Note a few posts back in this thread that Steve did put the axe design to a simulated load test.

    – Sam

    #1408308
    Christopher Plesko
    Member

    @pivvay

    Locale: Rocky Mountains

    What about doing an I-beam style head? That would require milling the piece or as a secondary operation but it could increase the pick's stiffness quite a bit.

    If that makes no sense let me know and i'll try to get a few minutes to model one up in NX.

    #1408365
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    Roger: your suspicions are correct – and the axe is weak in general. Anticipating it would have these weaknesses, I concerned myself with weight more then anything when designing it…and it was more of a "what material do I have on hand/when can I get on the machines/what is possible with my skills" (ie. I had personally never cut aluminum with a plasma cutter before – I think that's why my stuff had such terrible burrs) You'll be happy to know that V2 is already being researched (Carbon Fiber and 7075 should do the trick)

    Sam: Thanks…and yes, the next one is going to have a carbon shaft (the ones at macqc claim a tensile strength of 650ksi!?!) – if anyone has a line on carbon shafts let me know…Kevin?

    Chris: Since I personally can't TIG weld (the reason this axe is tacked), I'd have to get the guys to do it for me, so I had originally thought of making the pick and adze from "T" bar (was that what you were thinking?) so it was one piece and the top could have the cross member tapering to the front…but none was readily available. Machining it wouldn't be a problem, but in my next design I want to use 7075 for it's higher strength. Not sure, but I think blocks of it woud be dang pricey. Yep, I know it's not theoreticaly weldable…but I'm getting mixed reviews and working on it. Any first hand experience on this?

    A recap on the loading the axe can handle – I'll put together some better simulated tests which are more representative of the UIAA tests and share for those interested – new design only though…the old one is embarrassing…

    #1408371
    Christopher Plesko
    Member

    @pivvay

    Locale: Rocky Mountains

    I was thinking something like out of billet yes. Expensive? Maybe for production but for 1 offs I've done it plenty of times. Esp combined with a CF shaft you could design the whole piece around an epoxy fit up with the finished shaft. The combined loading (your original thinking with the T) would strengthen and stiffen up the pick and adze since they wouldn't just be relying on weld area for reinforcement.

    Then again you could repeat the original design and just make the pick section much thicker to start relatively speaking and machine the front and pockets in the back. From the top looking down you'd be "triangle-ing" down toward the head of the pick.

    Probably doesn't make a lot of sense without a picture but I just grabbed a quick look at the head of my BD Raven Pro last night for ideas.

    FWIW I can tig weld aluminum. Never worked with 7000 series. I know it's weldable (i've seen welded bikes with it) but I don't know if it's easily weldable.

    #1408382
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    I should have been more specific…I can TIG weld…but I'm not a welder…it's a crapshoot most of the time (ie. best left to someone else). ;)
    I do like the idea of the one piece head (I just looked at the Raven Pro) as it would be easier for ME to manufacture the axe (no welding). I'm going to work on it a bit tonight and see how it looks/works. I think I had a bit of tunnel vision chasing after the Helix's design.
    I use "expensive" in terms of what the material for my current axe cost…really $0. My local suppliers don't carry 7075 (been there before ) and I have to order full lengths if I need it. Mcmaster ripoff sells it but for the size I would need it would probably run me $100 bucks or so. I'll have to take a look around. I'll probably do a prototype out of 6061 but run the analysis with 7075.
    I see the bikes made of 7075 and my camp axe is 7075 so I know it's weldable, but I've always been told it isn't. Maybe a special process? I'll probably just get one of the guys to try it if I go down that route.
    Good input Chris – much appreciated.

    Edit: Just looking again at the Raven Pro, the handle looks very comfortable to hold – perhaps it is the way to go. I only mention that because one of R. Caffins observations when testing his Helix was that the head's edges were noticable.

    #1408385
    Christopher Plesko
    Member

    @pivvay

    Locale: Rocky Mountains

    I admire you're work and speed. I'm so busy I rarely get beyond the CAD/3D modelling stage lately.

    Keep us posted on how it goes :)

    #1408391
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    Hi Steven

    > Roger: your suspicions are correct – and the axe is weak in general.
    I think I will get a swelled head. :-)

    > You'll be happy to know that V2 is already being researched (Carbon Fiber and 7075 should do the trick)
    Hum … you have access to a plasma cutter and TIG welding? Maybe you should think about titanium – that would be a first I think. You can get small quantities of Ti from http://www.titaniumjoe.com – I buy from him.

    > pick and adze from "T" bar
    Yeah – interesting idea!

    > Welding 7075
    Yeah, very heat-sensitive stuff, but mainly at the highest tempers. You can electron-beam weld it I believe …

    Cheers

    #1408400
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    Roger,
    I considered Ti, but it's soooo heavy ;)…however, it is significantly stronger (140 ksi or so), so it may be the best option – Good idea RC. I'd have to weld it up – no way I'm machining the head from a block of "gold".
    The 7075 (about 85 ksi) is easy to work with, and I can anodize afterwards. I'll try to see where the sweet spot is regarding strength.
    If I stick with the "T" bar/block idea, I'll have to use aluminum. Ti would be a PITA to machine.
    Funny you mention the electron-beam welding, even my welding buddy had to look that up! – however, we don't have the capability so I most likely won't go that route.

    Any idea where people are buying carbon shafts these days?The golf store ones are too thin – ditto with arrow shafts.

    #1408413
    Ryan Longmire
    BPL Member

    @longmire

    Locale: Tejas

    try here:

    http://www.graphitestore.com/items_list.asp/action/prod/prd_id/99/cat_id/34

    I dont know enough about CF to guess what OD/ID would be strong enough for this application. price would be ~$60-70 per shaft (roughly).

    edit: this place might be better:
    http://www.carbonfibertubeshop.com//index2.html

    #1408430
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    Hi Steven

    Yes, Ti is heavier than aluminium, but the 6AL-4V Ti alloy is much, much, much harder! I am machining both at the moment. The 7075 goes smoothly; the Ti wears the milling cutters! (Thinks … I can buy carbide cutters … at a price!)

    I am not surprised you don't have e-beam gear: the comment was actually meant as a joke. Very much Mil stuff.

    Cheers

    #1408435
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    Hey now…not many people have Nuclear Reactors – we own 8 in Pickering alone…no joke. :) opg.com

    Thinking of going with http://www.macqc.com for the shafts…anything cheaper?

    #1408453
    Paul Tree
    Member

    @paul_tree

    Locale: Wowwww

    sounds like you have moved to carbon, so maybe some of these suggestions are moot. Also, I noticed on your adze, perhaps add metal to grind a bevel for the chopping edge. Anyway..

    1. No holes close to the head.
    2. First holes are smaller.
    3. Alignment of holes is offset.
    4. Adze is elongate, extends over top of shaft.
    5. Adze is notched into pick.
    6. Adze is curved for comfort.
    piolet3

    #1408458
    Christopher Plesko
    Member

    @pivvay

    Locale: Rocky Mountains

    That macqc site is cool! I need to spend some quality time there.

    Functional Ti/carbon b rated axe? Goal: Ligher than a BD Raven ultra with similar usability. Price would be out of this world but quite sexy. Revision #10? ;)

    #1408483
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    Chris…I'm on it – I'm dedicating my cottage weekend to it. I need to get some specs on that carbon. I'm curious to see if the carbon shafts would pass the UIAA standards. The fatigue tests scare me the most…50,000 cycles…my arm is going to be tired ;)

    Paul – Thanks for the suggestions – adze to be chamfered. Regardless if I'm now going with a carbon shaft, keep them coming.

    If we pool our ideas, we should be able to come up with the worlds lightest and most useful Ti/Carbon ice axe for the same price as a small car. :)

    #1408493
    Christopher Plesko
    Member

    @pivvay

    Locale: Rocky Mountains

    A thought on the carbon stuff real quick.

    A lot of the technical ice tools have carbon shafts these days. Often they'll carry a B rating instead of a T rating but at least a B seems to be attainable with a carbon shaft. Now using a straight up round shaft may not be as good as a shaped rectangle/oval shaft but given the nature of one-off/limited production, oval shafts may be out of reach at the moment.

    Such a fun topic!

    #1408511
    Paul Tree
    Member

    @paul_tree

    Locale: Wowwww

    I showed the chamfer on the wrong side. It should be ground off the bottom. Also, it should probably not be squared off, a (blunt) point will help focus the energy, good since it will likely bounce off hard ice.

    There are surface treatments to harden aluminum. Possibly hard anodizing: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-hard-anodizing.htm

    <>
    Besides the curve on the arrest-thumb-position, it'd be comfy to not have teeth on the 4 or 5 inches near the because thats where your hand gets lots of action in arrest.
    Since it is not such a technical axe as your Nanotech, that is appropriate. It's tempting to eliminate the adze. There is some use on loose snow/slushy snow when it might work, but you probably don't want to chop an ice hole or a ton of steps anyway.
    piolet adze annot

    #1408540
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    > There are surface treatments to harden aluminum. Possibly hard anodizing
    That will harden the SURFACE only.
    When you hit a rock, the underlying softer aluminium distorts and the hard anodising flakes off. That's what happened to my Helix.

    Cheers

    #1408547
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    Not to worry gentlemen – I am going with Ti on the next one.
    And what do you know – the Titanium Joe guy is just down the street from me (3 hours)! Finally…cheap shipping and no extra charges.

    #1408555
    Paul Tree
    Member

    @paul_tree

    Locale: Wowwww

    Hey Roger, since brittleness is proportional to hardness, probably better to avoid trying to get the whole thing hardened too much. At least the pick didn't break!

    So surface treatment came to mind, but as you say, the underlying stuff wont support major impact. Even a nice steel would get beat up with enough fun. Same with crampons: with aluminum, keep to the ice.

    It would be interesting to try a long shaft, since so light anyway, and it seems a walking axe. Longer will see more use.

    It would also be nice to have it be a replaceable shaft in case of breakage etc, maybe a soluble glue, or meltable or something.

    #1408565
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    Hi Paul

    > Even a nice steel would get beat up with enough fun.
    Try hammer steel: MADE for the task!

    > It would be interesting to try a long shaft, since so light anyway, and it seems a walking axe. Longer will see more use.
    Yes, definitely. The length was the major limitation of the Helix as a walking axe. I didn't get the longest one becasue of problems with air transport. This may have been a mistake.

    > It would also be nice to have it be a replaceable shaft in case of breakage etc, maybe a soluble glue, or meltable or something.
    24 hour Araldite. It bonds very well to the CF and the metal, and it can be softened by heating to about boiling point – enough that you can wring the bits apart. Don't know about other brands, but quite probably.

    Cheers

    #1408850
    Paul Tree
    Member

    @paul_tree

    Locale: Wowwww

    LuxuryLite sells a 48" SurvivalStik, the owner seems helpful, may sell a blank.
    http://www.luxurylite.com/ssindex.html

    #1408861
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    I redesigned the head of the axe using titanium and the shaft using carbon. I couldn't go with the one piece design with this material. Too expensive, and too difficult to make.
    It is currently the same style as my first head with some modifications – ie. no teeth close to the shaft for Paul :)- but I ran it (simulated) through all the UIAA tests and there is only one test that it fails (safety factor of 0.5).

    http://www.uiaa.ch/?c=310

    See…ice axes (EN13089) – first pictorial page, bottom right hand corner – "fix first 25mm of pick and apply 127N load 330mm down the shaft". I beefed up the head thickness by 50% and it still failed. I'm going to dig into it as there is a comment below the test that I noticed afterwards regarding permanent deformation.

    I'll post a jpeg and perhaps get some feedback tonight. I'm still working on the adze, as I want to find the sweet spot between minimal and useful (if there is one).
    Ordered the titanium yesterday from Tie Joe (great guy by the way – Thanks Roger) and am just waiting for more material properties from macqc before placing that order.
    Keep you posted!

    #1408972
    GARY JACKSON
    Member

    @asmjackson

    Locale: Orange County

    You were trying to 'coat' the handle so it would not transfer cold to your hand.

    I do not know if it would add too much weight compared to heat shrink, but if you thinned the "Plastic Dip" used for tool handles so you got a reeeeeal thin coat… You could experiment with that.

    As far as the lexan rod, then you would have to mount an L.E.D. on the top so it glows at night through the holes to illuminate your path (I know, too much more weight)

    Cool looking project!

    #1409057
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    The head is passing all but one of the UIAA tests, but input is always appreciated before I go and cut the Ti (which I should get early next week).

    Paul, no more teeth where the hand goes, and a nice chamfer on the underside of the adze which ends in a "point" for better penetration.
    With the current carbon fiber I have sourced, I can make any length (within reason) with a weight penalty of 2.15 grams/inch.

    Front

    side

    back

    #1409058
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    Gary,
    I've actually used that stuff before for tools. I should see how much is weighs (thinning is a possibilty). Definitely a good grip with that stuff.
    Thanks,
    Steve

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