Valley Uprising

Not all things are equal Jeffery. Which is of course largely my point; there is something about free soloing which predisposes folks to make statements of dubious accuracy. Mortality rates "far higher than just about any other sport" being one. I'm not questioning the integrity of your statement, but I am saying that your ambivalence about climbing (which is shared by many) could tell us plenty about the culture we live in, but probably doesn't say much about whether certain types are climbing are dangerous and how.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20632737

unclear whether climbing is that risky. they didn't talk about free solo though.

"Rock and ice climbing are widely considered to be 'high-risk' sporting activities that are associated with a high incidence of severe injury and even death, compared with more mainstream sports. However, objective scientific data to support this perception are questionable."

"The analysis revealed that fatalities occurred in all sports, but it was not always clear whether the sport itself or pre-existing health conditions contributed or caused the deaths. Bouldering (ropeless climbing to low heights), sport climbing (mostly bolt protected lead climbing with little objective danger) and indoor climbing (climbing indoors on artificial rock structures), showed a small injury rate, minor injury severity and few fatalities. As more objective/external dangers exist for alpine and ice climbing, the injury rate, injury severity and fatality were all higher."

I won't criticize people that free solo, or ride motor cycles or sky dive for that matter, but I can't help it, watching Honnold free solo big Yosemite walls makes my stomach turn.

I've done a little rock and alpine climbing. I prefer hiking alpine areas, with maybe an occasional class 3 thrown in. Not into achieving difficult goals, just like hiking around and sleeping under the stars. Listen to my radio with speaker.

Why do we have to understand or condone someone else's choices or motivations in the sport in the first place?

To say that highly publicized free soloists like Potter or Honnold are bad influences and to want to somehow censor their behavior edges in on denying everyone the right and responsibility to make their own choices.

I spent a period of time reading a lot of mountaineering books; high mortality was a common denominator. It's entirely possible that my impressions are skewed by this. But I don't think that I've censored anyone's behavior at all.

Again, I've usually enjoyed spending time with climbers; I've certainly picked up on the joy and passion they exude. I remember one German guy who'd been a month climbing out of Tuolumne; he'd met another couple who were climbers and they were going up Unicorn Peak (I think) the next day. The couple went to bed and I continued talking with this guy; he had to go back to Germany in two days; he was practically devastated. This had been the best experience of his life–although he'd been climbing for years. All he could think about was getting back to Yosemite. Anyone who falls in love with a sport or other activity feels like this.

"Peter Croft is the only name which immediately comes to mind which both had a long career free soloing and is still alive."

Primarily, I think, because he is extremely sensitive to what his capabilities are at any given point in time. He once commented, while still in his prime, that he had often cancelled a planned free solo on the spot because it didn't "feel right", contenting himself with a consolation 5.8 free solo, or something like that. That he is still alive and out there bears testimony to the wisdom of his ways.

He is, BTW, as close as I ever came to having a hero when I was climbing. The guy was, and is, the real deal-no fancy Lycra, slack lining displays, splashy front country climbs, etc. He just goes out quietly and does some awesome stuff. In that regard, I will remember his Evolution Traverse to my dying day. Guess this makes me a Croft fan boy, huh? ;0)

"To say that highly publicized free soloists like Potter or Honnold are bad influences and to want to somehow censor their behavior edges in on denying everyone the right and responsibility to make their own choices."

Well said, Craig. It fleshes out Dave C's comment above about the culture we live in, IMO.

Jeffrey, mountaineering is not the same as the variety of rock climbing we are talking about here. I am guessing you're talking about high altitude mountaineering books, where the risk calculations and objective hazards scarcely coincide with plain ol' rock climbing where you have a beer back at camp at the end of the day.

Alpinists will take risks that if they repeated, they might not live. Alex Honnold doesn't do that. He doesn't do things that, if he tried again, he thinks he would be likely to die. And Alex Honnold is on the bleeding edge of soloing, it doesn't say anything about the nature of soloing on easy terrain. Plenty of people do hundreds of free solo ascents of the same routes in the 5.0-5.6 range.

Free soloing is a pretty small part of Valley Uprising, and sadly this thread has devolved into the same old argument you read everywhere about free soloing. It's just armchair climbing, people running risks assessments on people they've never met, on terrain they've never climbed, in a sport they don't participate in.

Did anybody actually read my posts? Again, where am I censoring behavior etc.? Plus, all of the climbers that I mention having spent time with are Yosemite etc, rock climbers.

Whatever, it's just words. Thank god climbers give us such insight into the state of our culture.

ha, ha, ha,…

is anyone saying people shouldn't free solo if that's what they want to do?

the internets is so funny, how it can go off in a weird direction because of mis-interpretation

Eric, do you find any situation where roping in is, you know, safe? Oddly, most climbers that I see and talk to in Yosemite still do this on pitches where a fall would result in death.

The fallacy is in believing in the safety of the rope in situations where it really wont do very much

You see this all the time

Heres a recent local accident where the rope may well have caused the death of all the climbers, as without good pro/belays it may pull everyone down if one falls

http://m.piquenewsmagazine.com/whistler/hiker-fatalities-on-mount-joffre-a-reminder-of-dangers-of-backcountry/Content?oid=2636834

Let me ask you this jeffrey … How often do you lead trad and do you frequently do longer multipitch?

Eric, again, if you'd just read my posts, you'd see that I've stated many times that I'm not a climber.

Hey, whatever, I'm about done here; thanks for informing me that roping in is not always advisable and that free soloing a class five and a half pitch with exposure is no more dangerous than a game of baseball. I'm always happy to learn.

Three people hiking up fairly steep glacier with crampons? Roped together but no belay or anything?

That is a common practice on Cascade volcanoes. But maybe doesn't make that much sense?

A few years ago on Mt Hood, one rope team slid, unable to stop, then took out another team that also couldn't stop, so they all landed in a crevass. Several deaths. If they hadn't of been roped up, maybe only one person would have landed in crevass.

But you don't know how many times this technique worked, someone fell and was stopped by others on the team.

Of course, that's totally different than rock climbing big walls with belay. They routinely fall and get caught by belay. It's just part of the sport.

Free soloers will first do belayed climb to learn the route.

Heres a better article

http://gripped.com/news/mount-joffre-one-climber-dead-two-missing/

While i wont say that a single person has never stopped their team members in a fall … I will say that if one expect to do so on steep terrain through self arrest they are delusional

Theres many accidents where a single member pulled down the entire team

Imagine even one person slipping 20m above you with the velocity gain, and youll need to hold both yr weights … Never mind several folks

Theres a decent amount of folks out in squamish who solo multipitch rock … 6-14 pitches of moderate climbing

Theres tons of folks who dont climb to fall … Just like in the old days they hold true to the "leader must not fall" mantra … Back then the pro was so sparse and the gear was so shiet that you assumed u were soloing anyways

Anyways … As i said its almost always those who are new, those who dont climb, or those who climb infrequently who have criticise free soloing in general

Speaking of Yosemite and soloing, Dean Potter just set the FKT on Half Dome:
http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/thread/264/half-dome?page=1&scrollTo=2941

When Bachar died it was hinted at some point that he had some other health condition cause him to fall.. stroke, heart attack. something like that. Not sure if they ever found anything out about it but he was on a .10? or something very easy for him where a fall on his own would have been unlikely.

and if you want to talk about a culture of risk.. how many motorcyclists die every year without a helmet? cuz it is probably 10s of thousands more than any type of climber.