Valley Uprising

> Free climbing by the likes of Alex Honnold make my stomach turn

You mean free soloing. Free climbing just means not aid climbing. Most climbing you've ever seen anyone do is free climbing, which usually involves a rope, and placing or clipping into protection as you go. Free soloing is climbing without a rope or protection.

Types of climbing:
Aid climbing
Free Climbing

Free Soloing is included in free climbing
Aid Soloing is included in aid climbing (it's very strange)

yeah, that's what I mean, free soloing is what turns my stomach

seeing them with just chalk bag on Yosemite wall. Walking along ledge that gets progressively narrower for example.

they mentioned one free soloer that fell

they also showed a free soloer that carried a parachute. It looked posed – close-up on a difficult hold that he slipped on, then he fell, then chute popped, then rangers with vehicles with sirens trying to catch him because it's illegal to jump from wall and use chute.

Honnold aid climbs first before solo free to pick his route?

that's what I've heard, Honnold climbs route before attempting free solo

aid or free with belay

Actually free soloing makes me angry. One second of inattention and your life is over; plus everybody who ever cared for you is in misery. Young people showing an arrogant and stupid disregard for the preciousness of life. Now get off of my lawn!

In all seriousness I had a 'discussion' in the Yosemite back country with a man who doesn't free solo–he has a family!–but who admired the hell out of Honnold in particular. I suggested that lots of young men will ape Honnold's tactics with tragic results. He thought they all had a right to gamble with their lives and lose. His wife just rolled her eyes at me. Their two kids stood by ignoring us.

"Moments of Doubt" by David Roberts explores some of these issues.

> I suggested that lots of young men will ape Honnold's tactics with tragic results.

I don't want to really dive into the argument for or against soloing, but plenty of climbers free solo. I'd say most climbers in my area have free soloed on easy class 5. Although it's usually just called scrambling. What Honnold is doing is just soloing much longer routes than other people are willing to do. Honnold isn't a particularly strong climber for single pitch sport climbing compared to other people at his level of influence. Of course he's still soloed the hardest big walls in the world, like El Sendero Luminoso in Mexico.

> Actually free soloing makes me angry.
Ah – you favour the Police/Nanny State then? Where the individual does not have the right to determine his own life, but must follow YOUR rules?
Such a stance is not for me, but I don't mind if someone else thinks that way.
And yes, I have soloed a few routes.

cheers

There aren't many free soloers to get statistics from, but it's probably no more dangerous than ski diving or motor cycle riding

Maybe they should make it a little more clear how much he researches ahead of time so an inexperienced person isn't encouraged to do something stupid

The documentary did mention a free soloer that fell (and killed himself)

"you favour the Police/Nanny State then? "

It is jerry. Of course he does. But in this instance having s disregard for risks doesn't mean you favor govt intervention in climbing.

I never said I thought free soloing should be prevented by the police/nanny state, just that seeing it makes my stomach turn : ) and it seems pretty dangerous.

I think motor cycle riding is actually better because then they can harvest your organs for someone else. If someone fell from a cliff, it would probably ruin their organs.

The alpinist must learn to move faster before he/she can begin to travel significantly lighter. Not the other way around.

EVERY climber thats somewhat serious about longer climbs solos … its just a matter of whether you call 4th class or low 5th class a solo …

plenty of folks are effectively on solo whether they realize it or now … either they are so runnout that a fall would likely cause death … or more commonly on ice/snow routes they have a rope but no intermediate pro or anchors … in this case all parties attached to the rope would fall and die (this happened recently up here)

one of the bigger problems i see these days with new climbers is to believe that a rope makes you safe … it doesnt, theres plenty of times that the rope will give you a false sense of security or even slow you down (increasing the chance of objective hazards)

folks going on about how "unsafe" folks who solo are are almost always new or infrequent climbers, or the general public …

;)

How in the world did saying that free soloing makes me angry lead to my supporting a "nanny state"?

for the record, I've always admired rock climbers; I mostly backpack around Yosemite for chrissakes. I've spent many hours talking with climbers. And no, I don't climb.

I do have to take issue with the take-away from the following quote: "one of the bigger problems i see these days with new climbers is to believe that a rope makes you safe … it doesnt, theres plenty of times that the rope will give you a false sense of security or even slow you down (increasing the chance of objective hazards.)"I believe that the author is talking more about alpine ascents involving glacier travel here; not rock climbing as it's done in Yosemite. Apparently Eric feels that this means that new climbers shouldn't tie in. I see this as stating that, even when roped in, climbing is dangerous. The idea is to not have a 'false sense of security'. Surely no one advocates that new climbers should start out free climbing, when the result of a fall would be death? we're not talking bouldering here. Really, an ultralight backpacking mentality doesn't translate to all climbing scenarios, where less would always be more. But I'll leave it up to the climbers out there: is free climbing safer than being roped in? and if so, why is this still standard practice?

As it turns out, the phrase 'nanny state' makes me angry too. (Well o.k. not angry but irritated.) It's a dismissive gesture that has no analytic value at all. It's the 'boo-ya' of political dialogue. It suggests that manly men don't need health care, for example, and anyone who does is a sissy. etc. My dad's retired golf buddies throw this phrase around the clubhouse all the time. It's a boys' bonding thing. It proves their Republican bona fides. And it saves them from having to think.

This last diatribe isn't directed at Roger, who just dashed off a few words that were meant to be in good humour, I think. No problem with that.

I think "nanny state" is a Karl Rove/Focus group tested phrase to get people to vote against their own interests.

Government does some good things and some bad things.

I wish they'd get rid of this stupid bottle bill they have in Oregon that's infected other states. Easier to just put your bottles in the recycle bin on the curb. Maybe there are fewer bottles on the side of the road, but there's a lot of other garbage that still has to be picked up. It doesn't take into account the cost of people having to feed those bottles into a machine. re-feed when they're rejected. Maybe try to wipe off the bar code to make it work. Then, just give up and leave it there next to the machine. Maybe the bottle bill made more sense before we had recycling.

I've done lots of free solo climbing, but not on purpose. I led a climb of Chair Peak in the Snoqualmie Pass area of Washington. I did it once in good weather, and the second time was in bad weather. We climbed up to the peak, and from there were to rappel to a glacier below. But we were in fog on the second climb, and it just didn't look like I remembered it. I finally said "lets not rappel into the clouds, it just doesn't look right." We down climbed it the way we had come, and I followed my partner on each pitch. that means I belayed him, and I downclimbed with what protection we could place. The last pitch was steep, exposed, and no way to set an anchor and rappel it, so I downclimbed it. Scarier than ^^&*!

I have always had a strong fear of heights, which is strange since I painted 200' radio towers in college. I can't watch movies of free solo climbers. I did a pitch on El Cap, total aid climbing. Reach up, put in a nut or piton, clip in, attach etriers (sling ladders), take two steps up, repeat. I got about 150 feet off the valley floor, and said to my partner "OK, I've had enough."

I've seen incredibly skilled climbers that made me look absolutely clumsy. When I was in college some of them met with gravity induced trauma, including my mentor who was an experienced mountaineer. I said "ok, maybe rock climbing and big mountain climbing is not so conducive to longevity. But I do like easy mountaineering and backpacking." That is what I did for many years. Now I do backpacking and a few peak climbs. My old rock climbing partner is still doing very hard climbs, and he's in his 60s. I think he's careful, however.

The saying is "there are old mountaineers, there are bold mountaineers. There are no old, bold mountaineers.

Unfortunately non-climbers won't see that they skipped a very good '80 era in the Valley with a lot of important innovations like ohh.. the Cam that revolutionized trad climbing. and a bunch of very good climbers that did a lot more for the sport than effing Dean potter

Dean potter is annoying as all hell and his stupid ideas about solo base is stupid.. you need to be what.. 500' up to even have a chance? and that shot with him falling has been in the last 3 videos he has been in and he jumps like the poser he is. Haven't seen him climb anything impressive in years.. all he does is slackline. which is a party trick, not climbing.

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The saying is "there are old mountaineers, there are bold mountaineers. There are no old, bold mountaineers.

thats simply a myth …

theres plenty around … fred beckey is around … and theres tons others if we look

of course folks who push the limits are likely more predisposed to bite the big one … but thats true of any major endeavor

theres basically 2 types of folks … those who are happy to stay within their boudaries (and be a lazy bum like me) and those who go out and dont take "no" for an answer …

the former not infrequently disparages the latter … though as i said the longer and more frequently one climbs, the less this happens

the history of climbing tends to be built on those wild men and women

;)

"that is simply a myth"

but its a good myth. I'm not disparaging the risk takers, I'm just saying its not for me. Several of my friends died in climbing accidents, and as I mentioned, my climbing partner is still climbing. For every Fred Becky, there are 10 or more croakers.

My era of rock climbing was in the early 70s. I spent every weekend from fall to end of spring in camp 4 (in Yosemite Valley), and did a number of moderate climbs. We used pitons in those days, and nuts and chocks were just coming into play. The Wall of Early Morning Light was climbed by placing bolts, after which Yvonne Chouinard went up and chopped most of them out of the rock, as an act of purification. There was a guy whose claim to fame was jumping off cliffs. He rigged ropes so the ropes would stop his spread eagle fall just a few feet above the rocks below. That worked pretty well except that last time he tried it. He left a widow and kids. There is considerable basis to that myth.

" There is considerable basis to that myth."

It is worth noting in this regard that old, formerly bold, climbers, have gotten old by becoming less bold as their abilities diminish. The sub text is always to climb within your abilities. As they are at the present moment. Those who don't very quickly become formerly bold, formerly old, footnotes in the annals of climbing.

From wikipedia free solo climbing

"Some high-profile climbers have died while free soloing, including John Bachar, Derek Hersey, Vik Hendrickson, Robert Steele, Dwight Bishop, Jimmy Ray Forrester, Jimmy Jewell, Tony Wilmott, and John Taylor."

They gave a total of 13 deaths.

But, they didn't give a number for the denominator so you can't really interpret it

They did give the names of 36 people that free solo, which included some of the people that died.

Like someone said, it depends if you're climbing within your ability including effect of conditions. I don't mind "free soloing" class 3 pitches.

If you are going to be successful achieving peaks, you have to be somewhat "bold" and take some risks.

Yvon Chouinard started the eponymous piton company which became Patagonia. Royal Robbins did the second ascent of the Dawn Wall, and put the chisel away after the second pitch because of the quality of Harding's piton work.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but those who haven't done it should refrain from commenting on free soloing. It cannot be understood from afar. Peter Croft is the only name which immediately comes to mind which both had a long career free soloing and is still alive.

nm

lets get something out of the way …

ALOT of folks free solo out in squamish, or did at one time or another … almost everyone who climbs long multipitch out here and climbs daily at a good level for many years free solos or has done so at one point

this includes folk whose names you see in the guidebooks, famous (in climbing) names, normal folks who just do laps, people training for alpine, etc …

many of these folks are getting to a ripe old age, and quite a few of them still solo … this includes a local climbing legend or two on the rescue teams …

if you dont want to see free soloers … then dont climb in squamish … theyre all over the place

an to be blunt … most of them are probably "safer" than folks here … if you can confidently climb 5.12+ then soloing a 5.5 is basically like walking up a steep exposed trail (which can also be deadly)

what alot of new and infrequent climbs, and the general public, dont realize is that actual climbing ability, judgement and a cool head is probably the MOST important thing in not getting hurt or dying in climbing

sure theres gear, but folks die and get hurt all the time with the best gear … gear itself does not make you safe

once you add in the objective hazards of longer climbs … a person who can solo an easy climb in 3 hours vs a "safe" slow party that takes 9 hours … ask yourself who may well be "safer"

in days past … you simply did not fall … even if the gear held, you placed so little of it that youd take such a big fall youd be seriously injured anyways

heres gaston rebuffet in 1961 … it really doesnt matter that the leader has a rope, if he fell hed go SPLAT !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlNQ1Tv8JI0

i dont do it much myself, but i do it occasionally … something easy like a low 5th class i dont consider a free solo, you simply dont fall … just like any 3rd/4th class

whether folks free solo or not is there choice … but theres plenty of folks that do and are getting to a ripe old age up here

often those complaining about experienced folks free soloing are either new, or too afraid of their own fears that they need to put down those who can confront theirs

;)

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but those who haven't done it should refrain from commenting on free soloing."

Well that edict puts everybody in a quandary. I've never been to the moon; can't talk about astronauts. I've never performed surgery; can't talk about that. Hemingway was never in the bull fighting ring; shouldn't have written The Sun Also Rises. Joyce Carol Oates shouldn't have written about boxing. James Joyce shouldn't have written the Molly Bloom section of Ulysses: he's not a woman. Shakespeare never murdered anybody and yet wrote, you know, Hamlet. I bet Charlie Manson wouldn't do a better job, despite his insider status.

O.K. despite all that I'll acknowledge that without experience it's possible to get things wrong; better to defer to the pilot when talking about flying a plane. I'll go ahead and just state that I'm ambivalent about climbing because of the high mortality rate associated with the sport; far higher than just about any sport. I'm ambivalent about football because of concussions: that's a legitimate concern even though I'm not a professional football player. I'm not advocating banning football.

Again, I'll reference Moments of Doubt, and many other books written by climbers, some of which confront this very issue honestly, some of which show the author in denial.

I'm not judging or putting down climbers at all. I'm talking about my personal response to the sport.

Eric, do you find any situation where roping in is, you know, safe? Oddly, most climbers that I see and talk to in Yosemite still do this on pitches where a fall would result in death.