Softshell as Windshirt substitute

"… but a softshell is not a windshirt, nor is it mean to be."

Where can we find a definition of both windshirts and softshells ? :-)
Even the Patagonia Houdini, by many seen as the windshirt of windshirts, is called by Patagonia a … softshell. :-)

It is an REI Neo model, not Neo fabric. It has a nylon/spandex outer layer and a polyester/spandex inner surface.

http://www.rei.com/product/746587/rei-neo-jacket-mens

> Where can we find a definition of both windshirts and softshells ? :-)
Oh, everywhere!
Every vendor has a definition, usually coined by their marketing dept for the latest offerings. The idea is to maximise sales for this quarter.

My definitions, which are obviously biased and incompetent, are
Windshirt: single layer, uncoated, NOT waterproof or insulating, light, reduces wind,
Softshell: insulating layer, water-repellent surface, uncoated, reduces wind

But even so, those definitions miss a lot of features, like toughness, moisture removal, …

Cheers

That's just it: there is no singular definition.

And even in those definitions, there can be discussion about certain terms and how to define them. Take e.g. the term insulating. I have a stretch woven for instance; it has no insulation layer, is uncoated and reduces wind. It weights ± 18 oz.. Everyone would call it a softshell, yet according to above it would be a windshell. Or a light windlayer that most would call a windshirt. Yet, it is a double weave thus is not a single layer and thus would be according to the above a softshell.

How do I see it ? I look at what I want them to do in essence and as I exspect essentially the same of both, I actually avoid those terms for myself (I still use them for others as those terms are common). You can call it softshell, winshirt, action shell, … but in essence you want them to do the same.

I'm usually a midlle of the road Large, but I had to send my first Alpine Start back and exchanged for a XL-fit is much better, little baggie, but so is my Houdini- it does make layering over a puffy or mid-layer easier though

In my experience a windshell is much more durable than a rain shell. First off on a windshell I am not worried about the DWR wearing off because unlike some folks, I don’t wear a windshell in the rain, and do not expect it to be water resistant at all. Secondly, small pin holes, ember holes, thorn pulls, etc cause no degradation of the function of the garment, unlike on a WP/B shell where they would need to be patched.

I have used the same windshirt since 2007 or 2008 and though it looks well used, it can certainly be used for several more giving me a decade of moderately heavy use. Up until about 2 years ago I was backpacking 700-800 miles a year and my windshirt went on pretty much all Fall, Winter, and Spring trips as well as trips out west during the summer. (the past two years with the kids getting older and being involved in baseball, basketball, gymnastics, dance, and softball, along with a different job with more demanding hours has taken a hit on my number of trips)

I use my windshirt mostly as a hiking layer over a baselayer in cool or windy conditions. I will use it early in the mornings to keep me warm while hiking before the sun comes up, I use it to keep warm on summits and mountain passes, and on descents (I will sometime wear it on accents too, but often generate plenty of heat climbing, so it is worn on more descents and fatter ridge/valley walks than on accents), and to overall help me regulate my temperature. I also regulate with a 100wt fleece beanie and powerstrech gloves coming on/off if it is cold enough.

In these same situations I would roast trying to hike in a WP/B jacket and I have tried GoreTex, eVent, ProPore, and PU Coated shells like the Marmot Essence, and have yet to find anything that is breathable enough for me. I have had failures with PU jackets and my eVent shell with delamination, and have settled on a light GoreTex Shell and DriDucks jacket, both have seen heavy use (and both have some duct tape patches).

I wear my puffy over my windshirt especially at camp in the mornings before and while packing up because while not as warm as wearing the windshirt over, I like to be able to put the puffy in the pack last thing and be ready to hike and not lose all my heat by taking the windshirt off, then puffy, then putting the windshirt back on.

I think a windshirt could be a good addition to your quiver of garments if you run hot and sweat easily. Some people can hike all day in WP/B jackets without sweating too much and if that is you more power to you (and I am truly envious – I sweat like a pig in them if working hard). My advice is if you do get a windshirt get one that is very breathable. To me the windshirts that are not very breathable are not much better than a WP/B jacket and therefore not worth the weight.

I have played with softshells very little, and couldn’t ever get one to fit into my hiking style/locations. I do think they would be OK in very cold conditions where you need some insulation while moving, but it is so cold you don’t have to worry about liquid water from the outside, only getting liquid water from the inside (aka sweat) out. I know there are people (Dave Chenault is one of them and either wrote an article here or on his blog) that prefer light softshells to windshirts so you may read up on that approach too.

What works for some people may not work for others so you have to find what works for you but I would not be overly concerned about durability. Windshells can last a long time.

There are still 24+ oz laminate softshells out there, but they're pretty dead. Trill's BDV is a good example of what modern softshells can do, and do very well.

How many people reading have legit wore out an upper body layer of clothing? Esp by not using it to ski or climb offwidths? The UL equals non-durable thing may or may not be true, but clothing is not a particularly good example of the principle.

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This thread is just what i needed…

Right now for spring/summer/fall sierra backpacking I bring: lightweight wool T, powerdry hoody, puffy, button up sun shirt(dress shirt style), and rain shell.

I'm not suuper happy with the button up… but it's pretty nice when i'm on a sunny exposed climb, or it's warm and there are bugs about. So would something like a houdini replace it? People are still bringing their puffys right? Are these really as breathable as a dress style shirt?

it won't replace a puffy, that is for sure :)

it could replace a tight weave dress shirt though, it will keep bugs at bay- it's not going to be as breathable as a cotton dress shirt, but will block wind and light precip much better; it also adds a small amount of warmth to your overall system

IMHO, a windshirt and a tight weave button up can be pretty close in function. I use a button up for hot weather sun and bug protection and would use it like a windshirt if there were no other options. The only issue is more about performance for the weight.

The current Houdini's don't breath as well as the old (about 10:1). The Westcomb Crest would come closer— nice but spendy. My stable of button up shirts weigh 7.5-10oz. A lot of people just buy office-worker-bee polyester button up shirts. Walk into any thrift store and the used shirt rack will go off into infinity. Once you get into that 8-10oz range, there are all kinds of running wind shells with vents, pockets, etc. There are some cycling brands completely ignored by the hiking world. Giro has a windshirt that looks very interesting.

Yeah, people still bring puffies! Windshirts and base layers are great when moving, but when you stop moving and take off the massive insulation of a backpack in the cold, it's puffy time :)

hah.. yeah the puffy comment was a bit of a brain fart :/

So a windshirt would be useful in this situation: exposed+wind=i'm cold
but not in: exposed+sun=i'm burning to a crisp (and not cold)
?

exposed+wind=i'm cold YES

exposed+sun=i'm burning to a crisp (and not cold) Not so much

Depends on breathability, color and your activity level. The <3cfm fabrics aren't much to shout about for walking uphill in hot sun. The sun protection type tops like Solumbra are as heavy as a button up or more and spendy. I like a white silkweight long sleeve base layer so it wicks and cools as well as blocking the sun and bugs and it's still the base layer in my layering system.

yeah- I think that's a good assessment; in very hot weather the windshirt is going to be warm, probably too warm

that's why I typically use a long sleeve base layer in a light color- of course in MT we don't have to contend with overly hot weather in the mountains either :)

"So a windshirt would be useful in this situation: exposed+wind=i'm cold
but not in: exposed+sun=i'm burning to a crisp (and not cold)?"

Yes, though it can be used some in the sun, but unless its cooler or you have a strong cool wind, it will probably be too much. Like I said before I recomend getting as breathable of windshirt as possible (the post 2012 Houdini's are not as good as the pre 2012's, and therefore I would avoid them) and get a lighter color. I would think a black windshirt would be a mistake.

I subscribe more to UL philosophy for DIAD trips- hiking, climbing, out of bounds skiing – But on multiday trips, I have reservations about being stuck in the middle of no where with failing gear.

I feel like the layer that I am wearing the most, should be the most durable- the issue is that it seems to be variable.

I wouldn't use a windshirt for hot and sunny. I want the wind to flow right through my shirt.

Unfortunately everyone wants to make nylon button up shirts that are upf rated which requires them to be tightly woven and not breathable. The upf fad has made it hard to find a good, tough, breathable nylon button up.

rOg w, why don't you just wear something like a cap 4 over a thin base layer under your houdini instead of putting on a softshell that provides a insulation? Or even 2 thin base layers layered on top of each other. More versatile that way and accomplishes the same thing. You would have 3 temperature options instead of 2.

+1 Brad. Good post.

Ryan

first of all … whats a softshell ….

you have several types

– membrane softshells … polartec powershield, windstopper and other friends … heavier, less breathable, somtimes more durable, VERY wind resistant/proof, often a bit insulating

– mid weight weave softshells … dead bird gammas, patagucci simple guide, etc … a bit lighter, generally very breathable, pretty durable

– very light weight softshells …. BD alpine start, MEC farpoint, etc … pretty light, very breathable, durability varies …

and theres others as well ..

a "softshell" can mean many things, however lets talk about "normal" weave softshells …

– they weight 2-4 times what a windshirt weights

– they offer a slight bit of insulating qualities

– they are very breathable .. often as good as the more breathable windshirts

– generally very abrasion resistance compared to a windshrt … which is why many climbers use em on abrasive rock

– they can absorb more moisture so take a bit longer to dry than a wndshirt

remember that windshirts themselves run the full range of virtually unbreathable to highly breathable …. and stuff like the squamish is not that far off from the alpine start in weight …

the point is all this argument about "softshells" vs "windshirts" is stupid … an alpine start has more in common with the squamish that it does with a powershield pro softshell … and the MEC farpoint has more in common with a houdini than a dead bird gamma SV

if you want something thats "durable" look more at the weight … a 10-14 oz weave softshell would be my choice for technical climbing, or even a membrane softshell if its really cold and theres a lot of stop and go … for non abrasive outdoor use the "windshirt" or "UL softshell" works just fine

MEC farpoint …

http://www.mec.ca/product/5034-288/mec-farpoint-jacket-mens/

;)

del

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Indeed, I use a windlayer also in warmer conditions but if it gets too warm (even if it's really breathable and light colored), I take it off and use:

OR
lots of suntanlotion on my pale skin (my skintype burns in 5 min. )

OR
where a longsleeved zip-T with an high enough UPF that can be made of a reasonably lightweight fabric but is lightly colored then (white or light grey) or be made of a really lightweight fabric and may not be so light colored (starting to experiment with a reasonably light blue).

On day trips, a softshell is fine. Multiday, I could never find a softshell that would breathe under a hardshell without making me sweat … or a wind shell for that matter. Backpacker mag suggested wearing a softshell full time in cold conditions with a carried light hardshell to put over it just in case (few yrs ago), but again, I'd worry about sweating too much if I had to get out in the combined ensemble (so my winters are now spent in sunny SoCal and Az). Lately, I try to let my cheaper windshell take the "hits" (spilled food in camp, smoke and sparks from pyro camp mates doing their best "Firemarshall Bill" imitation, thorns on the trail while hiking in the rain) over my pricier eVent rainshell. My light colored Houdini is mostly there for hiking in sunny but chilly conditions. Would like to replace it with a shirt but wind cuts right through the latter. Not sure I'd want to subject most softshell jackets with the abuse my regular Houdini has taken.

Why wearing a hardshell over a softshell/windshirt unless it's a downpoor ?

That's my point, W, is when I wore a rainshell over a softshell in 3-season/alpine conditions, I started sweating (might be the same for my windshell- haven't had the need to try it). Think the original thought in wintry conditions was wear the softshell but keep a light hardshell stowed just in case both needed to be layered (maybe when the St. Bernard comes with the rum).

Just to ADD; I had one if the original fleecy softshells, and just didn't like the way falling snow clung to it, so switched to Neoshell. The black softshell looks great on art gallery night, however.