Starting to go UL, looking at tents

I don't think anyone mentioned this specifically, but if you buy a quality, light-weight piece of gear, you will have no trouble selling it on Gear Swap if you decide it's just not going to work for you: MLD, Tarptent, Zpacks, etc. — all the cottage gear companies people have already listed. If, however, you buy a REI Half Dome, Marmot Limelight, North Face whatever, etc. you're going to probably have a much harder time and need to deeply discount it — 50% – 60% off. Compare that to just knocking 10% or 15% off a carefully used Zpacks Duplex. In other words, if you buy a quality piece of gear, there's a little bit of built-in insurance (you can make a mistake) — someone will want it and you'll loose $40. If you buy something at REI or Gander Mtn, it might be cheaper to start with, but you better be sure it's the gear for you because finding a buyer is going to take patience and a large part of the purchase price.

In terms of your spinal issues: trekking poles will probably really help. As far as packs go, I'm a real advocate of carrying weight off of your shoulders/spine and on your hips. Many–most–internal frame packs don't transfer weight to your hips that well. On this forum people advocate for lightweight gear first. It could be that a slightly heavier pack with a good frame and waist belt that transfers weight off of your upper body comfortably is best for you. You might even look at a lightweight external frame pack(audible gasps). Especially if you're the pack mule for your family. I have a slight curve to my spine and really need to get the weight off of my shoulders. You may be different; just a thought.

>> You might even look at a lightweight external frame pack(audible gasps).

Are you off your rockers! :P

There is no doubt that external frames transfer weight to the hips best. Frameless packs do not and are uncomfortable after about 20+/-lb. The Zpacks Arc Zip looks like it could be a great choice.

http://www.zpacks.com/backpacks/arc_zip.shtml

I know I've eyed it as I daydreamed of thru-hiking.

I've thought about an external frame pack, but I suffer from a chronic "no ass" condition that makes just about all hip belts semi worthless to me. I've lost a lot of weight but I still don't really have a waist and I might never find one (used to weigh over 300, I'm now below 240 and still dropping steadily). When I was "thin" back in high school, I still needed to cinch down hard on a belt to keep my pants up. One nice thing about losing weight is that I CAN'T buy any clothes so I get to focus on gear until I get to where I want to be (shooting for 200). This is another reason that I want to get the pack last, since a lot of the UL packs have size specific waist belts. I went backpacking last weekend with my pack loaded normally (Base Weight 23 lbs, Total weight 33 lbs) and I unhooked the waist belt for the last few miles and I was MORE comfortable. I have a weird shaped back (Scheuermann's disease).

For those that have the Locus CP3 poles, do they "click" when you're walking like I've read in reviews? I think that would drive me crazy. With my weight, would I be better served with something like a Black Diamond Carbon pole? I really like cork grips, so putting the Gossamer LT grips on the Locus CP3 poles would cost about the same as just buying the Black Diamond Carbon poles anyway. The only real penalty is weight but it's not a an extreme amount and I get the impression that the Black Diamond poles would be tougher.

Nevermind on trekking poles, I just picked up two pairs of Leki Corklites from the recommendation here:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=101081

I know they're not the lightest things in the world, or the smallest when collapsed, but they're cheap enough that we can find out if we like hiking with poles and I can replace them with UL alternatives for not much cash lost in the process. Now to find a tent! The wife is tentatively okay with a tarp. Is there somewhere that I can rent an UL tent to try it out for a long weekend trip?

1. Tarptent Moment DW – I own one and love it. Lots of room for one and it has 2 doors & 2 vestibules.

2. Six Moon Designs Skyscape (silnylon version) – a hybrid 1/2 wall tent that is very light.

Both tents are silnylon and priced reasonably for a high quality tent.

Here is some general info to help you in case you haven’t come across these links already:
Mike Clelland(NOLs instructor and author, his books are very good),he has some great free videos on lightening up be sure to watch(his clothing system,the entire contents of his pack,water treatment and part 1 and 2 on the dinky stuff for ideas),this is an article he wrote The fastest way to backpack weight loss ,this is pmags Lightweight Backpacking 101 and The Frugal Backpacker – The $300 Gear Challenge .These are some other articles and videos for you to check out

Backpacking for Cheap: Gear for the Gearless

Backpacking Checklist (Gear List): 3-Season, 3-Day

Lightweight Backpacking 101: An Introductory Manual for Lightening Your Load Today (1st Edition – August 2001)

Cheap Ultralight Gear List

Oregon Field Guide: Ultralight Hiking

Lightweight Testimony: Lighter, Farther, Faster
Jamie Shortt talks about his progression and shows his gear list for each stage, Lightweight Testimony: My Journey into Lightweight Backpacking
CleverHiker Light weight Basics
CleverHiker Trail Skills

Andrew Skurka has a very good website with trips and gear lists for you to check out, here is a talk he gave at google
Ultimate Hiking Gear & Skills Clinic
His book is worth checking out also
The Ultimate Hiker’s Gear Guide: Tools & Techniques to Hit the Trail

Ryan T just posted this deal from Six Moon Designs Lunar Duo – Explorer S&D 2 person 41oz $217
this is their scratch and dent sale

Scratch and Dent Shelters have minor factory blemishes that affect the look but not the functionality of the shelter, things like stitch holes in the canopy that are easily sealed over. Scratch and Dent shelters are sold “As is” and are non-refundable so be sure that you want the shelter before purchasing.

I'm looking hard at these two options now:

Big Agnes Angel Springs UL2 from gear swap section:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=101133
Weight: 41 ounces
Square Feet (living): 29
Square Feet (vestibule): 10
Entry: Single
Self Supporting: Yes
Stakes: Included

Six Moon Designs Lunar Duo, scratch & dent:
https://www.sixmoondesigns.com/bargin-bin/LD_Closeout.html?redirected=1
Weight: 41 ounces
Square Feet (living): 34
Square Feet (vestibule): 24
Entry: double
Self Supporting: No
Stakes: None

The biggest differences seem to be "cottage industry" vs "Big Agnes", size (especially vestibule), an whether or not trekking poles are needed. The Big Agnes is a "normal" tent, which appeals to my wife. The Six Moons is a "tarp" which appeals to me. What other differences between these two tents should I consider?

As you note, you're going to have more room in the Lunar Duo. And you and your wife will also have separate entrances and vestibules with the Lunar Duo. The Lunar Duo will have a "dry" setup, whereas the inner on the Big Agnes will get wet if you set up in the rain. The Big Agnes will have a smaller footprint.

I've owned tents from both companies and both performed well.

Edit: there's also a material difference. The Lunar Duo uses 30D Silnylon for the floor and tarp. The Big Agnes uses a silicone-treater PU-coated nylon (I don't see the denier specified, but probably 20D). 30D silnylon will be stronger and should have a longer life.

I would like to start taking the little one with us this year. She's only 13 months, so she's plenty small. Do you think the Lunar Duo would last us a couple of years with her sleeping between us or should I look into a bigger tent to start out with? I'm prepared for the likely possibility that she won't want to go with us, or we won't want to bring her along. Grandma is always eager to take her for a day or two however. I plan on getting in another 4-5 long weekend trips this year either way.

My wife, who is not much of a camper, has been really happy in our lunar duo. It's big enough for the two of us (we're under six feet and have tons of room). I think you can fit a youngster that likes to snuggle between the two of you for a couple of years, especially if you keep your gear in the alcoves outside of the tent. I went with the heavier version because I use it primarily for car camping and will use it for short backpacking trips where the extra weight is not a big deal. I've been very pleased with it.

Since you asked for stories so you would repeat other people's mistakes…

I learned (the hard way) that looking at pictures of gear and discussing "would you be OK with XYZ" or "would you trade ABC weight difference for DEF nice feature" with your spouse, teenager, or friend — are a complete waste of time UNLESS they have actual field usage experience with both of the options you are discussing.

In general, I found that most women that went on trips really disliked tarps. Even those who thought they would be no big deal. Mosquitoes (even a few), spiders, and slug tracks on their sleeping bags changed their minds quick. They same thing applied at men who weren't hunters, used to sitting in the woods for long periods, so I dont think its a gender specific trait. But the women all objected to the lack of privacy in a tarp. Especially when everyone needed to change out of their wet trail cloths into their dry camp cloths. Another thing that changed people's minds about tarps was seeing foxes (etc) at night, who were staying just outside the light and commotion of the camp, but who clearly were not afraid of humans. "Trust me, they won't bother you when you are sleeping" isn't as comforting as a thin wall of fabric – even though it's true.

I learned similar things about sleeping bags, pads, and packs. "Yes I'd rather blow up a 1 lb air mattress than carry a 2.5 lb self inflatable all day" translated into "OMG – this is waaaaay too much to deal with" very quickly. Lesson learned – include the cost and weight of a inflation bag or battery powered pump. Teenagers are fine with foam pads, until they weigh about 135 lbs – then they start waking up sore, or not sleeping well.

Sleeping quilts are AWESOME in warmer weather, but hated in colder weather – unless you sleep very still all night. Unless you have a tarp – then include the cost and weight of a cheap bivy sack to keep the creepy crawlys away ;)

Packs need to be comfy for the weight. A solidly anchored padded hip belt, should straps than don't rub your neck or armpits, a light frame, and a pocket to put a headlamp / snacks / bug lotion / etc are the important features.

The key is to figure out which set of features you'll actually need and then buy the lightest version that is sturdy enough to meet your needs. Ie: enclosed shelter needed ? Condensation on the ceiling / walls OK – or is a full mesh liner needed ? Is a sleeping bag more convenient than a quilt because you sleep cold or toss and turn a lot ? Do you need an extra 10-15 liters of pack space for fleece, or are you bringing a puffy-fill jacket instead ? Are there lots of spiny plants that pop air mattresses where you hike that would cause you to need pack space for a ridge rest ? Would you need to pair that with a torso length 1" self inflatable pad for comfort ? Do you hike where you need to carry lots of water and need a sturdier frame and hipbelt to carry the load on your hips ?