Cold sleeper – what to do?

> Why on top?
Technical. It boils down to what you want your mat to do for you.
If you want padding – either arrangement will do.
If you want warmth, the CCF on top is usually much better.

Why?
Because many air mats do not have enough fluffy material inside to stop the air from moving around. If it moves, the warm air from your body can move down to a cold area, and the cold air from below can move up to your body. The mat may be comfortable, but it may not be very warm. Of course, if you test the air mat with absolutely zero body movement, the air may not circulate – so you get a much higher reading for the R-value. But how many of us sleep dead still for the full night?

On the other hand, a CCF pad does not suffer any of these problems. And down air mats are pretty good too, for the same reason.

Cheers

Socks made of Muskox yarn are 8 times warmer than wool. 8 times more expensive than wool. Wear a pair to keep your feet warm and that might take care of your problem. Down is good, muskox is better :-)

– women generally run colder and need a bag ~10F warmer than men for the same "comfort"

– similarly with pads women need one with a higher R-value for the same "comfort" … which is why womens versions of some neo airs have a higher R value

theres other factors as well … but unless you deal with the above 2, its simply a bandaid

read this to understand

https://www.mammut.ch/images/Mammut_Sleep_well_pt1_E.pdf

;)

Without taking away from the magical properties of the musk ox, I wonder how you measure "socks made of Muskox yarn are 8 times warmer than wool." Same warmth for 1/8 the thickness? Feet kept at 2400 degrees (assuming we're measuring temps in Kelvin)? 8 times the R-Value?

Seems like random marketing speak to me.

>Seems like random marketing speak to me.

Michael, you and Roger think alike :-). I can only report my findings. If someone is interested, they will do the research and go from there.

If Titanium works for so many maybe Muskox will work for a few….dunno

Will a sheep survive along side a muskox in arctic cold conditions…dunno does it mean anything? probably not.

So, in the end let's just say it "seems like random marketing speak to me"

"The fine Qiviut fiber has good tensile strength, but does not hold up well under friction. This is why the Co-Op does not make socks, gloves or mittens."

Here is the link: http://www.reactual.com/clothing/warmest-socks.html

Here is the quote: "Qiviut (pronounced “kiv-ee-ute”) is the name for the downy hair of the musk ox. It is the warmest fibre in the world — about eight times as warm as sheep’s wool."

Here is the price: 100% qiviut (musk ox) — $175
35% Qiviut, 40% Merino, 15% Bamboo, 10% Nylon – $94

Here is the advice: Get down or synthetic booties. I believe the choice was recently debated, take your pick.

— about eight times as warm as sheep’s wool."

This should be followed immediately with a lab report. For a $175 pair of socks there'd better be some supporting data. :^)

What George said, get some down booties or down socks and call it a night.

"Michael, you and Roger think alike :-)"

I'll take that as a compliment.

The 8 times warmer claim may originate out of the University of Alaska at Fairbanks, or is being propagated by them ; ).

http://www.uaf.edu/files/snre/MP_08_02.pdf

"The fine Qiviut fiber has good tensile strength, but does not hold up well under friction

John, the cold sleeper just wants something to help her through the night. She did not indicate she wanted something multi purpose ;)

>The 8 times warmer claim may originate out of the University of Alaska at Fairbanks, or is being propagated by them ; ).

http://www.uaf.edu/files/snre/MP_08_02.pdf

Yes, John….you're doing great research. Maybe, they're just propagating the claim.

Let's just forget the muskox thing and go for the down booties ;)

But Dan I am having fun researching it ; ). The claim may be based in relative weights.

http://www.uwcc.wisc.edu/info/farmer/pre2001/030400k1.html

"Eight times warmer than sheep wool by weight and very lightweight, qiviut is one of the finest natural fibers known to man and is often referred to as "the cashmere of the North.""

Sorry for all the thread drift.

I have perma-cold feet when sleeping. Even at home, except in the dead of summer (here in Maine that's August First through August Second), I need to sleep in Acorn-type slippers with leather bottoms. AND I need socks on, too! I have tried down booties (Goose Feet) with the overshoes; they are ok but the overshoes do NOT like staying in place — at the bottoms of my feet — and so I continue to use the first-mentioned method. It works camping in my overstuffed Katabatic Sawatch quilt, which is rated at 15 d. (though as a cold sleeper, I am reluctant to take it below 20 d). So far the system has done fine into the low 20s. I doubt many on BPL would use Acorn slippers, but they help me stay out when it's colder and stretch out my camping season.

I've found this to be quite helpful as I am also a cold sleeper.

One thing not mentioned that I've really found helpful is I sleep in a hoody with the hood up. If it's cold enough I'll wear a beanie as well since I'm bald – but the hoody really helps keep cold air from seeping in around my neck and shoulders. I have never been able to really seal a mummy bag, and with a quilt you'll have less success for obvious reasons.

even a turtleneck with a beanie still doesn't keep me as snug as that hood does. It's one reason I've moved to hooded jackets as well.

Old saying, but very true:
If your feet are cold, put on a hat.

If your head gets cool (not cold, just slightly cool), your body will shunt lots of hot blood to your head. Your feet are the first to lose out.

It's no use trying to insulate your feet if they are not getting the warmth (hot blood) in the first place.

Cheers

i just read through this forum. Ive been diving into older interesting topics. This is One of the best ive read. Keep it up good people.

A lot of good tip here.

When I got my first real pad, Exped Synmat, highest R, I was able to relax and sleep well.

Not feeling my heat was draing down to the ground.

I’m a cold sleeper too and I take thin polyester long johns in summer if I know it will be below 40 F.

I sent my 30 F. Western Mountaineering Megalite bag back to WM to be overstuffed. Now it’s good to 20 F. in my experience. It worked fine this hunting season in northern Nevada at 8,500 ft. in 18 F. temps.with those heavy duty long johns on plus a sweater and the light balaclava.

I also wear a thin polyester balaclava on cool nights. Veins in the neck and head do not vaso-constrict like they do in the rest of the body when exposed to cold so think of that area as a “radiator” of your body’s heat.

Once in August on the PCT in an 8,000 ft valley below Olancha Peak it got down to 28 F. the first night and 20 F. the second time on the return trip. I forgot my balaclava so I had to wear my spare T-shirt over my head like Beavis. It worked. My bag was the 30 F. WM megalith before I got it overstuffed. That trip convinced me I needed the extra down.

In winter it’s heavy poly long johns for me and, if necessary, quilted pants and my light down jacket over them in addition to the long johns.  Good “for-sleeping-only” heavy wool/synthetic socks are essential.

Also pull your zipped up, cinched hood parka over the foot of your bag for more warmth. And of course have a warm sleeping pad.

As you may have seen in my post on an LL Bean -20 F. winter bag I have sleeping bags for different temps.  This is essential for winter unless you want to cover your 3 season bag with a down quilt.

Thanks for all the great advice. Turns out the advice about the pad was spot on. I’ve been supplementing it with 2 Gossamer Gear 1/8″ pads: one on the bottom and one on the top. I haven’t been too cold since. It is a bit of a klutzy set-up and at some point I’m going to swap out my neo-air for a pad with a higher r-value. It works for now, though.

@cat123 – That IS a klutzy set up, with two 1/8″ pads! Have you tried a reflective pad instead? That mylar really works! I used one, on top of my Synmat UL, foil side facing my body, in the Andes in very cold weather, and it WORKS. I had the thin one, cut down to size, and would definitely use that again.

They come either thicker, like THIS, or thinner, like THIS.

@ Catherine;

Lots of good advice here.

Some scientific context. You have probably heard of sleep cycles. Usually they range from 90 minutes to 120 minutes. Your body temp drops as your metabolism slows which is necessary for falling asleep. For this reason on the Tour de France, when the cyclists are not in air conditioned hotels, the trainers bring in ice bags to help them fall asleep.

Second, most nights in coastal California at sunset the ground is radiating heat out into the air. The ground temperature and ambient air temperature slowly drops to lows an hour or two before dawn.  if you are waking up cold at 300 or 400am, I suspect you are getting cold when your body starts to lose heat through convention into the ground.  Above, I think you answer your own question when you say you fell colder below.” I was definitely colder on the bottom than on the top.” Adding down pants or a thicker quilt will not help.

Down clothing and the heavier quilt help prevent losing heat through radiation into the atmosphere which does not appear to be the problem on 45 degree nights in California. But perhaps you are encountering microclimates colder than the forecast lowest nighttime  temperature.

One final parameter is your choice of campsite location. Cold air flows downhill, can pool in low spots, and a very slight breeze1 to 2 mph right at ground level can cause a slight windchill effect. I personally like to find places for my tarp near a tree that will block any wind, radiate some solar heat, and offer some soft leaves to augment my pad.

Everybody is different, but try eating a few macadamia nuts before bed, and during the night.

Works for me as it acts like an internal heating source by charging my metabolism.

Shelter size and ventilation play important parts too.

“Have you tried a reflective pad instead? That mylar really works!”

Reflective materials only “work” when there is a measurable air gap between the radiant heat source (exposed skin) and the reflective material. Any clothing or material obstructing the radiant transmission, and the reflective benefit reduces to zero. Also, any part of a person’s body which directly touches the reflective material is then reducing heat flow by thermal conduction, and no longer by thermal emittance. In other words, the shiny stuff only helps if you not wearing clothing, and don’t actually touch it. Even then, it’s more of a marketing gimmick, which is why the FCC is suing companies which have made false R value claims with it… at least in the building industry… but probably not going to happen in the outdoor equipment industry any time soon.