what would a 10 # base weight look for a winter trip?

[Mike M]

my parred down gear for a 3 day trip for winter (prepared for 0-ish weather) is closer to 15# than 10#, I can get closer to 10 by using a snow trench and only bringing a tarp and bivy, but I'm still a ways from 10#

anyone have a kit that light? unrealistic? I'm happy w/ my kit, but there seems like there is always a little room for improvement

there are a few items I don't think I can get much lighter:
my shovel is about as light as I can get (BCA B1 @ 1.1 #), I've dug too many shelters to even consider a claw or the like, so nothing much to trim there
I have a 0 degree quilt that weighs just under 2 #, not going to get too much lighter
I use a TR XTherm regular @ 14 oz, to get an equivalent R value in a ccf pad would definitely be more weight

pack, shelter, clothing carried, cook & water and essentials quickly shoot me past the 10# mark

[David Gardner]

15# for winter camping is pretty darn good. Can you post your gear list here or on a companion thread so we can see what might be pared down? I personally would not be willing to forgo a tent in winter for a snow trench, tarp and bivvy, just to get down to 10#. How much does your current tent weigh? Are you willing to spend money to get lighter gear?

[Roger Caffin]

Perhaps a bit too thin – if you value your life more than the brownie points.

Cheers

[David Thomas]

I'm leaning towards unrealistic. Yes, the trench saves you tent weight and is warmer than a tent so you save on quilt/bag weight but only compared to winter in a tent, your sleeping gear (warmer quilt, thicker and longer pad) still weigh more than in summer. I'm glad to see you include a bivy – some conditions and some locations just don't allow for a snow trench.

Because clothing becomes more critical, I include a little more synthetics so as not to rely entirely on down in the winter. That adds some weight. More so, the greater thickness of puffy layers adds weight and volume. And volume means a heavier pack.

A more serious stove, pot and a bunch more fuel (yeah, I know, not base weight, but still) seem a given.

And the whole "stuff happens" category that is more important in Winter. Frozen water has much less heat capacity than liquid water – winter temperates can swing much more than summer temps. When you expect 60F in Summer and you will not see 25F. But expecting 20F in Winter and an unexpected night-time, high-pressure system can dump heat through a long, dark, windless night and you can have -15F by morning. Also, if it rains or gets colder in Summer, you can just keep hiking. With long nights and possible deep snow or icy conditions, you can't count on a brisk walk to keep you warm or to evacuate. So you need to have more gear in case you need to hunker down, IMO.

15# is UL in Winter in Montana.

If you want 10# (more like 5# SUL) in Winter, the Na Pali Coast on Kauai is nice.

[Justin Baker]

http://seatosummitultralight.blogspot.com/2014/05/seven-day-sierra-snow-gear-list-2014.html?m=1

[Greg Mihalik]

From the link above –

Well Mike, you're way ahead of many …

Nice job.

Maybe post a gear list for others to pick apart?

[Mike M]

agreed 10# will be hard to achieve and possibly unrealistic, but hey always worth giving it a go :)

Justin is that your list? Looks pretty well thought out and nice to see several MYOG bits in there!

OK, here's mine using a snow trench (in lieu of a snow trench I use a ID Chockstone Solo eVENT tent- it's a four season tent and thus far seems to be pretty bombproof- while light in the realm of four season tents, not overly light at 57 oz, obviously I ditch the tarp and bivy when I bring the tent, but it adds an additional 34 oz)

Pack

Exped Lightning 60 39.1 oz
cuben dry sacks
2x 12l, 1x 2l 2.1 oz

total 41.2 oz

Shelter/Sleep

6×8 30d tarp 8.9 oz
MLD eVENT bivy 13.9 oz
HG 0 degree quilt 30.9 oz
Kat down hood 1.5 oz
TR Xtherm 14.0 oz
1/4" ccf pad 3.8 oz
flexair pillow 0.8 oz

total 68.8 oz

Cook/Water

MSR windpro
stove w/ windscreen 8.5
Evernew 1300 4.9
GS1 plastic bowl
cup, spoon 4.1
lighter 0.8
2x 16oz Nalgene
widemouth bottle 5.2

total 23.5 oz

Essentias/Misc

first aid kit 1.3
fire kit 0.9
repair kit 1.9
headlamp w/
spare batteries 3.4
SPOT tracker 3.9
map/compass 3.1
TP 0.8
toiletries 0.6
camera 4.3
sunscreen 0.8
BCA shovel 18.1

total 39.1 oz

Clothing carried

OR Incandescent
down parka 17.9 oz (sometimes I carry my MB Alpine Light @ 12.8 oz)
Pat Ex 4 capilene
1/4 zip mid-layer 8.9 oz
OR Helium
hardshell 6.9 oz
MLD eVENT
overmitts 1.3 oz
OR fleece mitts 2.8 oz
Ibex wool balaclava 2.1 oz
spare socks DT tall 3.9 oz

total 43.8 oz

base weight 216.8 oz 13.5#

[Justin Baker]

It's not my list, it's Andy Duncan's (BPL member) list.

I get cold very easily so I need to carry more weight. I need a 15 degree bag AND wear a down jacket to sleep to stay warm in the mid 20's.

[Jim Colten]

Considering that Skurka's base wt for his "Icebox" trek was about 13.5lb and 18lb for the late winter part of the Alaska-Yukon trek … 10lb might be doable for a very short outing when one thinks there is a reliable weather forecast but I think it is at least flirting with "stupid light".

[Rick Reno]

I can't touch 10 lbs. for a winter day hike!

Where are you doing this, Florida?

[Greg Mihalik]

Flirting is a good thing, and it doesn't need to be stupid.

It's the quest that counts.

[Dale Wambaugh]

Winter SUL separates the men form the boys in a hurry. If you are comfortable at 15#, so be it, especially in Montana. Winter nights are long!

[BlackHatGuy]

I don't see any fuel listed, or am I just missing it?

Something I've been thinking about lately but haven't yet actually tried – why not skip the larger cuben stuff sack and use your bivy as a stuff sack for your down stuff? Seems like it would work, pull double duty and save a few ounces.

Why carry a down hood if you have a hood on your parka?

Are you counting on the bivy to provide additional warmth?

Only things that come to mind.

Vive la journey!

[Hiking Malto]

Mike,
my normal "winter gear" base weight comes in right about 10lbs but it could be apples and oranges. My 20 deg quilt, bivy, mid, and xtherm has allowed me to go down to 0f when using vapor barrier. This does not include snow shoes, skis shovel etc. So it could be apples and oranges. I also am still able to use my Burn though I would go up to a Jam if carrying multiple days of food in the winter in a location such as the Sierra. BUT, I am either walking or sleeping so this gear is not set up to hang around camp for a couple hours, something I learned again last month in NY.

[Mike M]

thanks for all the comments!

Jim- yeah I'm leaning that way too :)

Doug- fuel was overlooked- need to add 3.5 oz for the canister (5.1 for when I carry the 8 oz ones)

I have a nice hood on my down parka(s), but wouldn't normally wear it sleeping, not sure how you could wear just the hood portion- that's where a detachable hood would be really handy!

the bivy does add some warmth (probably in the 10-ish degree range by my best guess), but mainly carried to keep the quilt/bag dry- sometimes gets a little moist in snow trenches and caves- it also serves as a last ditch shelter if for some reason I didn't have time (or materials) to build a shelter

I never thought about using it to store stuff in, but that might just work :)

Greg-that's definitely impressive! I haven't played w/ vapor barriers, I know some folks swear by them (some at them); in the winter I like carrying a quilt/bag close to what I'm expecting as often it's lower than expected, I'm thinking w/ most of clothing on I would be safe well below 0 (but maybe not cozy)

looking over my list w/ a critical eye:

I think I could definitely shave some weight from my pack, maybe w/ something custom in cuben, would need to be very close to 60l and I'd want at least some form of aluminum stay(s), might be able to get into something in the 18-22 oz range????

I don't see much for savings in my sleep system

shelter- maybe a cuben mid at 10-12 oz????

my cook setup I could ditch the bowl and eat out of a ziplock; I predominately melt snow for water so reluctant to go to alcohol, esbit, etc the windscreen is the original aluminum one, could probably shave an ounce or a little more w/ a ti one

clothing I don't see a lot of room, I do occasionally take my MB Alpine Light in lieu of the OR parka which shaves 5-6 oz

I'll have to do a little looking in cuben packs and cuben shelters

[todd]

Unless you KNOW that you'll have no condensation in your bivy, I recommend NOT storing insulating items in the bivy. That will lead to an inconvenience, at best…a cold, damp night at worst.

[Mike M]

^ ah- good point

[Alpo Kuusisto]

There are winter trips and there are winter trips.

A month ago there was one from the easiest end of spectrum:
– from Friday evening to Sunday noon
– temperatures slightly below freezing
– very familiar area, forested, quite flat, easy bailout
– several campsites with firewood available
– thin hard packed snow
– some wind and and little snowfall predicted
– cross country skiing on and off tracks
– water: half melted, half from lake outfluxes

Equipment not in base weight:
– skis, boots, poles + clothing
took care not to sweat my jacket and sometimes skied in base layer top.
– food

Equipment in base weight:
– backpack (Salomon Raid from previous millennium, around 700g)
– sleeping bag (Joutsen Quantum 900, around 1000g)
– hammock that fits inside the sleeping bag (DIY, around 400g)
– light hooded wind jacket and pants (Marmot Ion & Warmpeace Fly, 300g)
– thick furry fleece (Warmpeace something, 400g)
– sleeping socks (wool knit by mom, 100g)
– shell mitts (asTucas 50g)
– pot (Trangia 200324 from who knows what decade, 200g)
– matches, lighter and Ti Spork (with edge sharpened to shave kindling, 100g)
– headlamp (Zebra H600w, 100g)
– some Leukoplast tape for fixing gear and possibly the user
– wallet (DIY, 50g)
– cell phone (HTC wildfire, 100g)
total 3500g = 7lbs 11oz

Setup relies clearly on fire building, which is pretty easy on that area.
It also requires relatively nice weather and easy terrain.
Without tarp the hammock had to be pitched under thick spruces due to light snowfall.
Tarp, alcohol stove and heavier sleeping bag would extend the weather tolerance quite a bit.

[Mike M]

^ sounds nice :) in Montana I have to be prepared for close to the other end, 0 degrees gives me a little room if were to drop below that

I just ordered a CAMP Crest shovel, it's not suitable for avy work, but these are solo trips and the shovel is for shelter building- it weighs 8.9 oz, a savings of a half pound. It can do double duty and reside in my wife's car during the winter.

[Gary Pikovsky]

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=100759

[Earl Gilbert]

nevermind

[Andy Duncan]

Hi Mike,

I've had good experiences on multi-day winter snowshoe trips in the high Sierra with a 10 lb setup.

In my opinion the biggest weight saving technique is 'spending' weight on extra 900 fp down for my quilt instead of using a bivy or heavier shelter. After a few trips I added extra down to the hip area and foot box of my quilt and have slept warm ever since (down to 10f). It weighs 23 ozs total with 17 ozs of 900 fp down, 6" loft.

I use an 8 oz Solomid made with 0.5 oz/sqyd cuben for a shelter and it's been fine in all night snow storms with very heavy winds. Most 4 season shelters weigh at least 1-2 lbs more and would typically add 10 or maybe 15 degrees of warmth. It would only take another 4-6 ozs of 900 fp down to increase the warmth of my quilt by 10-15 degrees.

I like a challenge but do not take unrealistic chances. My gear list includes the weight of a SPOT, camera, GPS, w/b jacket/pants/mitts, puffy etc.

If you're interested here are links to a gear list and trip reports from a few 5-7 day snowshoe trips:

Gear List

Tablelands Snowshoe Trek

Glacier Divide Loop

Have fun!

Andy.

Edit to fix links.

[Mike M]

Andy- thanks for posting those links, looks like a couple of very nice trips and a well dialed in gear list!

my original thought was you couldn't get any lighter than digging a snow trench or cave for shelter, but my experience w/ both is that you want a bivy when sleeping in one-they can be damp; the bivy also adds a margin of safety if you weren't able to construct a shelter

a small, cuben mid looks like a lighter way to go; it also frees up time and opens up other site options- I'm definitely going to look into one

one other thought was looking into a highly water resistant material for my quilt, which would allow me to part way withe the use of a bivy (it does take away a safety margin for a quick shelter); not sure what material that would be- obviously would need to be breathable

my quilt uses 850 treated down (I think ~ 22 oz worth) which is a plus in winter, I think it's conservatively rated to 0- our temps can get pretty cold in here in Winter, it's also a long, x-wide- uses Argon 67, it has a DWR finish, but not sure how that compares w/ materials like Pertex as far as water resistance

I see your myog pack is only 14 oz, that's an area where I'm sure I could shed weight- my Exped 65 (which is a great carrying pack btw) weighs in at close to 40 oz- if I could get something in the 24 oz range would shed an additional pound

can you post details/pics on your pack?

thanks

Mike

[Andy Duncan]

Thanks Mike.

I agree that when using a snow trench a bivy would provide some much needed protection, especially with these down quilts. I used the older version of the Zpacks Pertex (1.1 oz/sqyd) for my winter quilt and it seems to have a good DWR and sheds frost/condensation well. I haven't used Argon yet but I'm working on a half bag using the newer Zpacks Pertex (0.75 oz/sqyd) and will be trying it out next week. The Thru-hiker M50 has a plastic-ish feel but a good DWR and might be a good option for a shell material. I've used it on 30 and 40 degree quilts in the past.

Your HG 0 degree quilt sounds like some serious UL luxury! How do you like it so far? The HG quilts seem like a good value for high end materials.

Maybe the newer version of the GG Gorilla or one of the MLD packs would be a good option for a winter pack in the 24 oz range. I have used the older version of the Gorilla and it was comfortable, especially with the internal frame, for heavier loads.

I used a combination of 1.4 oz/sqyd cuben and 210d Dyneema for the MYOG 14 oz pack. There are internal channels for the frame but I have found that it's ok without the frame when packed right. In winter I roll up an Xtherm pad on one side and a 1/16" GG insulation pad on the other to create some stiffness and this seems to transfer the load to the hips well. If you're interested I did a write up with all of the material details here:

Heavyweight Ultralight Backpack

Andy.

[Mike M]

Andy- that's a beauty! :) I've looked at the Gorilla in the past for "summer" use- nice pack, but need something in the 60l-ish range for winter stuff, Mariposa is closer (but obviously heavier too); the MLD Ark is a possibility though, not sure if there is an option for a frame????

Mike

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